usage

noel · Post by **noel** » Mon Jun 14, 2004 3:25 pm

I need some consensus:

Would you wince (very hard) if you overheard this dialogue?:

A: Where's Bill?
B: He's making a business trip.

I don't want to influence your responses, so I won't give my reasons for asking this just yet.

Andrew Patterson · Post by **Andrew Patterson** » Mon Jun 14, 2004 5:23 pm

Any reply that anyone else makes will influence everyone else. I will reply, but I'll send you my opinion in a private message. I suggest everyone else should do the same.

Stephen Jones · Post by **Stephen Jones** » Mon Jun 14, 2004 5:44 pm

Presumalby 'making' is the problem.

I though the sentence was fine initially, then did a double take. I'd say 'He's on a business trip' but the other phrase doesn't make me wince - a slight twinge perhaps.

Andrew - the whole point of a public forum is to influence everybody else.

You don't think we post here out of an altruistic desire to further scientific research do you?

noel · Post by **noel** » Mon Jun 14, 2004 6:12 pm

Thanks for your replies, Stephen and Andrew.

I'll try to remember that we don't wince at grammar mistakes, and refrain from doing so in future (hard or otherwise) - although certain utterances from native speakers have from time to time caused me to react as if to a slightly painful stimulus, though, as a language professional (some may argue with that description of myself), I shouldn’t be admitting to this publicly. I certainly hope my use of the word didn't cause you to wince, Andrew.

You both knew exactly where I was coming from, of course. We don’t normally collocate ‘make’ with ‘trip.’ But I found just such a collocation (taught as a collocation) in the textbook I was using, and therefore sought a consensus on this forum. At first, I felt prompted to tell my student that it was a mistake. But then I thought of certain other examples:

“I’ll just duck out and make a quick trip to the can first.”

or

“She makes so many business trips to the States that I hardly ever get to see her.”

Would either of you (or anyone else) object to either of the above two constructions?

wjserson · Post by **wjserson** » Mon Jun 14, 2004 6:59 pm

"make a trip" (ie. the verb "make" combined with the object "a trip") is a combination I have honestly never head and if I saw examples in a book, I might be quick to explain that following the book's advice might lead to confusion.

The verb 'make' does imply movement when added to examples such as 'make a left/right turn' , 'make it in 20 minutes', etc. "I'm in a hurry, I need to make a 2 o'clock flight": The semantic meaning of the ue of 'make' here in this sentence represents 'arriving on time'.

'making a trip' sounds like a student trying to say 'planning a trip'.

Andrew Patterson · Post by **Andrew Patterson** » Mon Jun 14, 2004 7:11 pm

“I’ll just duck out and make a quick trip to the can first.”

or

“She makes so many business trips to the States that I hardly ever get to see her.”

Would either of you (or anyone else) object to either of the above two constructions?

The first sounds right, but I'm the wrong person to ask, "duck out" and "the can" are both American expressions, the UK equivelent would be, "I'll just be a minute" and "the loo".

She takes so many business trips would be more likely.

You could of course combine the two at a dinner party and say, "excuse me, I won't be long, I need to take a quick business trip." Depending on their sense of humour and the amount of alcahol consumed they will either find it funny or extremly crude. Make sure you know the difference between "do business" and "do your business" - the first you do to make money, the second you do in a toilet.

noel · Post by **noel** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:41 am

Sorry, wjserson: I'm not sure what you mean by "the ue of 'make'."

Andrew: I agree that 'take' in the second example would be more likely, but would 'make' therefore be impossible?

And the use of 'make' in the first example sounds fine to me. It seems that the collocation sounds acceptable in certain cases where 'trip' is qualified in some way. In the first example, there's the addition of a prepositional phrase indicating location. [/i]

Tessa Olive · Post by **Tessa Olive** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:52 pm

Hi Noel, English is my first language and 'make a trip' sounds fine to me. e.gs "Business people make numerous trips O.S. every year."
"Last year I made a trip up the coast to see my dear old granny."
So there's no wincing from me.
Tessa.

LarryLatham · Post by **LarryLatham** » Wed Jun 16, 2004 12:17 am

Nor me. Just because there might be a statistical preponderance of collocation for "take a trip", that does not mean that other collocations (eg. "make a trip" or even "do a trip") should be classified as mistakes, such as to cause winces from native speakers or (gasp) teachers. Some of our most interesting and meaningfully communicative language comes from uncommon collocations.

Larry Latham

Roger · Post by **Roger** » Wed Jun 16, 2004 3:39 am

I didn't think "making a trip" was ungrammatical.

By the same token, I would like to ask:
Which is better/wrong:
'make a comma there..." or "do a comma..."
The popular expression "make that two" or "make that 'another round of beer'" comes to mind.

I am also not sure if you "make a photo" or "take a photo". Both seem to me to be acceptable.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Wed Jun 16, 2004 10:10 pm

Stephen Jones wrote:
Andrew - the whole point of a public forum is to influence everybody else.

I hope it's not through correct spelling:

<Presumalby 'making' is the problem.>

What were you saying to Sonji?

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Wed Jun 16, 2004 10:11 pm

noel wrote:I need some consensus:

Would you wince (very hard) if you overheard this dialogue?:

A: Where's Bill?
B: He's making a business trip.

I don't want to influence your responses, so I won't give my reasons for asking this just yet.

He's been planning it for a while and now he's making it.

Harzer · Post by **Harzer** » Thu Jun 17, 2004 1:49 am

Count me as non-wincer.

To Roger: yes, make a photo and take a photo are both correct but with a distinction in meaning.

make a photo is to me a much more deliberate act carried out with a view to commercial use or preservation of the image for posterity.

Harzer

lolwhites · Post by **lolwhites** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 12:38 pm

I must admit that I winced a little at the sentence "he's making a business trip", but some of the other examples looked fine to me.

It just goes to show how careful we have to be not to write off contructions/collocations just becuse we wouldn't use them ourselves. How often do you say to a student "I don't say this myself, but other people do"?

LarryLatham · Post by **LarryLatham** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 10:52 pm

lolwhites wrote:I must admit that I winced a little at the sentence "he's making a business trip", but some of the other examples looked fine to me.

It just goes to show how careful we have to be not to write off contructions/collocations just becuse we wouldn't use them ourselves. How often do you say to a student "I don't say this myself, but other people do"?

This is a vital point that I fear will slip by (again) unnoticed (again) if I don't help lolwhites to underline it. It is common (and reasonable) for teachers to submit student questions to the "Would I say that myself" test. After all, if you would say it yourself, then you can honestly and truthfully answer the question: "Can you say...?" positively. The catch comes when your personal litmus does not confirm the word or phrase or sentence submitted by your student. You cannot, then, reply in the negative without qualifying your opinion. There may be lots of native English speakers who find it perfectably acceptable.

We all owe lolwhites our thanks for reminding us of this (again).

Larry Latham

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