Are mistakes bad for our EFL/ESL students? I mean does it impede students' progress or likelihood of eventual success if they make mistakes that we teachers don't immediately correct? Can there be a debate here, or is this a no-brainer?
Larry Latham
Are mistakes bad for students?
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LarryLatham
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Of course it’s not a no-brainer, dear Larry!
however, like a lot of issues in ELT, it’s hard to give a definitive black/white answer. IMHO, it depends on the student, on what they are learning, at what stage their learning is at. Very quickly:
I believe in selective correction if we are aiming for fluency – then speech is generally longer and more complicated, and the on-the-toes language production means that the student makes certain spontaneous mistakes that s/he normally wouldn't make as a result of excitement or nervousness. If we are working on accuracy issues, then obviously I would be more picky. A practical example: if students are telling me about their weekend or what they thought of the final match of the Euro 2004, then I am not going to stop and correct every student who drops a final ‘s’ in the present tense – they are more interested in getting what they want to say across and barely register the correction, much less take note of it. On the other hand, if I am drilling a e.g. conditional form with questions like “What would you do if I fainted?” then I expect them to consider the question and take their time giving me an answer in the correct form. However, if I notice that the free-speaking churns up a lot of oral mistakes, I would be sure to include some sort of review or drill in that same class to make sure students do know the correct form.
On a student level – a robust, confidant student can take correction better and more often than a shy student. Sometimes I will deliberately choose to ignore certain mistakes a shy student makes in free speaking simply to encourage him/her to speak. After s/he has had a taste of ‘success’ in speaking, s/he may be encouraged to say more. Then I would gradually become stricter.
As far as their ‘stage of learning’ is concerned – at a certain stage of learning I really crack down on basic mistakes because I want to discourage bad habits. I have held conversation classes where post-intermediate level students continually make pre-intermediate mistakes, like dropping the ‘s’ and saying things like ‘what means xyz?’. Mostly these are bad habits – or things they may have incorrectly learned from other teachers. Sometimes the mistakes are so ingrained, a simple correction doesn’t work. In such a case I have a hotel reception bell that I take with me. Whenever the student says ‘what means…?’ I quickly tap the bell and smile at them. They correct themselves. After being ‘belled’ a couple of times, they start to correct themselves when they see my hand move towards the bell – then they just stop saying it (parallels with Pavlov’s dog, anyone, anyone?). It just makes students more aware of what they are saying.
however, like a lot of issues in ELT, it’s hard to give a definitive black/white answer. IMHO, it depends on the student, on what they are learning, at what stage their learning is at. Very quickly:
I believe in selective correction if we are aiming for fluency – then speech is generally longer and more complicated, and the on-the-toes language production means that the student makes certain spontaneous mistakes that s/he normally wouldn't make as a result of excitement or nervousness. If we are working on accuracy issues, then obviously I would be more picky. A practical example: if students are telling me about their weekend or what they thought of the final match of the Euro 2004, then I am not going to stop and correct every student who drops a final ‘s’ in the present tense – they are more interested in getting what they want to say across and barely register the correction, much less take note of it. On the other hand, if I am drilling a e.g. conditional form with questions like “What would you do if I fainted?” then I expect them to consider the question and take their time giving me an answer in the correct form. However, if I notice that the free-speaking churns up a lot of oral mistakes, I would be sure to include some sort of review or drill in that same class to make sure students do know the correct form.
On a student level – a robust, confidant student can take correction better and more often than a shy student. Sometimes I will deliberately choose to ignore certain mistakes a shy student makes in free speaking simply to encourage him/her to speak. After s/he has had a taste of ‘success’ in speaking, s/he may be encouraged to say more. Then I would gradually become stricter.
As far as their ‘stage of learning’ is concerned – at a certain stage of learning I really crack down on basic mistakes because I want to discourage bad habits. I have held conversation classes where post-intermediate level students continually make pre-intermediate mistakes, like dropping the ‘s’ and saying things like ‘what means xyz?’. Mostly these are bad habits – or things they may have incorrectly learned from other teachers. Sometimes the mistakes are so ingrained, a simple correction doesn’t work. In such a case I have a hotel reception bell that I take with me. Whenever the student says ‘what means…?’ I quickly tap the bell and smile at them. They correct themselves. After being ‘belled’ a couple of times, they start to correct themselves when they see my hand move towards the bell – then they just stop saying it (parallels with Pavlov’s dog, anyone, anyone?). It just makes students more aware of what they are saying.
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LarryLatham
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woodcutter
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yet more on the M word
Argh. Don't make me defend the wretched Nazis again. Herr Method Teacher, of course, believes that out in the free world, students babble on incoherently all lesson, with some poor befuddled teacher in the middle chucking in "he says, not she says" once in a blue moon. So the Fuhrer constantly shouts things like "No! Not Sheep! Ship!" at the students, and makes 'em do it again and again. So they walk out, right? Nope. In general (well, over half!), they say, "ooooh, I like this method, the teacher corrects my mistakes!". And the talking continues.No brainer. If we corrected every mistake they made immediately, no one would talk any more.
I can, if I'm a motivated student, read grammar explanations, and find fellow learners to chat with. Correction is the thing I will never find outside a class. I think most of us do too little of it. That said, if you have a group of people who want to have a lunchtime chat in English and a cup of coffee, I say let them go for it uninterrupted by stress. I once tried to do as Lorikeet says and bring up mistakes at the end of the lesson, but it used to put them right off their food.
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Stephen Jones
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woodcutter
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Is it so simple?
I find it hard it hard to believe that you can please all of the people all of the time, especially regarding the thorny issue of correction. Students tend to believe they want a great deal of it, have little empathy with the teacher's dilemma in providing it, and sometimes resent getting it.
My experiments with noting mistakes down have been fairly mixed. There are a lot of possible things to note down, and to pick out the most relevant takes a fair bit of concentration. I find that I am unlikely to write things to do with rhythm, stress, tone or pronunciation, and more likely to write things which will turn the "correction" session into a little grammar/vocabulary review workshop. Simplistic mistakes (such as he/she, was/were) will almost never get corrected using this method, though possibly this does not matter. To relegate correction to the end of the lesson tends to make it somewhat derisory, and to keep having mini correction sessions is unhelpful for the pace, mood and flow of the class.
My experiments with noting mistakes down have been fairly mixed. There are a lot of possible things to note down, and to pick out the most relevant takes a fair bit of concentration. I find that I am unlikely to write things to do with rhythm, stress, tone or pronunciation, and more likely to write things which will turn the "correction" session into a little grammar/vocabulary review workshop. Simplistic mistakes (such as he/she, was/were) will almost never get corrected using this method, though possibly this does not matter. To relegate correction to the end of the lesson tends to make it somewhat derisory, and to keep having mini correction sessions is unhelpful for the pace, mood and flow of the class.
Correct?¿
Hey everyone.
Rania explains clearly the same framework in which I judge the effectiveness of correction. I have a bit of whip-slashing blood like woodcutter, those pattern drills must be done following strict practice routines. And yet, my experience is the contrary to his, I tend to try to break bad habits like forgetting the "s" on any word that ends with "s", or not answering questions with the information solicited, or saying "there---is---a" instead of "theresa". So my note taking during focused role play is hardly ever centered in grammar, though structure yes.
I also don't do free conversation classes, haven't for years (I could be pretentious and say "in more than a decade") and part of the reason concerned the correction of errors. I could not find any effective way of calling a student's attention to things they ought to have corrected without meeting with a polite smile and finding that most of those who just want to converse will not take any of your improvement advice to heart. Uuff, I personally found some of those classes unbearable, remembering that I was the common denominator in all of those dreary, halting hours talking about the insurance business....
peace,
revel.
Rania explains clearly the same framework in which I judge the effectiveness of correction. I have a bit of whip-slashing blood like woodcutter, those pattern drills must be done following strict practice routines. And yet, my experience is the contrary to his, I tend to try to break bad habits like forgetting the "s" on any word that ends with "s", or not answering questions with the information solicited, or saying "there---is---a" instead of "theresa". So my note taking during focused role play is hardly ever centered in grammar, though structure yes.
I also don't do free conversation classes, haven't for years (I could be pretentious and say "in more than a decade") and part of the reason concerned the correction of errors. I could not find any effective way of calling a student's attention to things they ought to have corrected without meeting with a polite smile and finding that most of those who just want to converse will not take any of your improvement advice to heart. Uuff, I personally found some of those classes unbearable, remembering that I was the common denominator in all of those dreary, halting hours talking about the insurance business....
peace,
revel.
Not to cop out at all, but I find it really depends on the situation : are we referring to conversation outside of the classroom? Are we referring to discussion in class (in front of other students)? Also are we talking about phonetic problems or other more complicated ones?
I'd say that I'm incredibly careful about correcting students in class in front of other students. As already mentioned, you risk damaging the motivation that gave the student the confidence to speak out loud in the first place.
I'd add that during frills it's very important to make sure everyone repeats the example correctly so the rules of kindness change somewhat, don't they? You are obligated to correct them if they make mistakes.
In person, when speaking to my students one-on-one, I find the rules are also complex : I would never start writing down mistakes on paper and then say to the student "OK, have you finished? Let's go over your errors..." I also would refuse to talk to an instructor who would do such a thing : he/she is more likely listening to my oral language than to what I want to say.
For pronounciation, it's easy to be polite : if a student mispronounces a word (by replacing 's' with 'sh', for example) I find it simple to repeat the word in my response, imbedded in the small talk. Most attentive students pay special attention to their instructor's pronounciation and make the change right away.
Student: Do you like ishecream?
instructor: I enjoy icecream a lot.
(Time for me to be quiet now and )
I'd say that I'm incredibly careful about correcting students in class in front of other students. As already mentioned, you risk damaging the motivation that gave the student the confidence to speak out loud in the first place.
I'd add that during frills it's very important to make sure everyone repeats the example correctly so the rules of kindness change somewhat, don't they? You are obligated to correct them if they make mistakes.
In person, when speaking to my students one-on-one, I find the rules are also complex : I would never start writing down mistakes on paper and then say to the student "OK, have you finished? Let's go over your errors..." I also would refuse to talk to an instructor who would do such a thing : he/she is more likely listening to my oral language than to what I want to say.
For pronounciation, it's easy to be polite : if a student mispronounces a word (by replacing 's' with 'sh', for example) I find it simple to repeat the word in my response, imbedded in the small talk. Most attentive students pay special attention to their instructor's pronounciation and make the change right away.
Student: Do you like ishecream?
instructor: I enjoy icecream a lot.
(Time for me to be quiet now and )
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LarryLatham
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Perhaps. But the key word here is "attentive," isn't it. I wonder what percentage of the students in a typical class are attentive in this sense. Wouldn't it be wonderful if we, as teachers (leaders), could increase this percentage? How, do you think, could we do that?wjserson wrote:Most attentive students pay special attention to their instructor's pronounciation and make the change right away.
Larry Latham
Re: Are mistakes bad for students?
LarryLatham wrote:Are mistakes bad for our EFL/ESL students? I mean does it impede students' progress or likelihood of eventual success if they make mistakes that we teachers don't immediately correct? Can there be a debate here, or is this a no-brainer?
Larry Latham
I find that students like being corrected. I think there is a good chance of errors becoming fossilized if this is not done.
A Brazilian recently asked me, "How come people don't correct my errors when I speak?" One of the places he was thinking about was his workplace. Amongst other things, I explained to him that this is because they understand what you are saying, and this all that they feel is required. They might be afraid of offending you as well. Or maybe they just don't want to concern themselves with it.
We should expect more from language teachers. I have no problem whatsoever correcting students, and I've seen that they appreciate it. It's always good to be able to provide an explanation as well. I mean tell them "why" they can't say that.
It also helps to pick the right time to make corrections, of course. Different situations call for different times to make corrections.
The shorter the spoken discourse, the better it is to make on the spot corrections. The longer the discourse, the better it is for the teacher to take notes and then talk about the errors after. This is as I see it and have experienced it.
In tutoring situations I, without doubt, make corrections. The students expect it. It's part of getting their money's worth out of the lesson.
tact, tone of voice, how, when, why - We should consider all of these when making corrections, of course.
Sometimes it's good to just let the students talk in order to develop fluency, but in the end not making corrections can, I believe, frustrate students' efforts to speak the language accurately. And in turn this can frustrate students.
On the first day of a course, I usually ask everyone to introduce themselves and talk a little bit. While this is going on I take down the errors. When everyone has finished, the first lesson of the course begins based on the errors I heard during the introduction. No one particular person's error is pointed out. I just say, "Okay, this is what I heard. Here's how it should've been. Or here's one of the ways it could've been."
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LarryLatham
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- Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2003 6:33 pm
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I've seen myself that students like to be corrected. Well, sort of. They like it if you do it in a certain way. Some people here have mentioned that students get frustrated if you correct them too much, or at the wrong time, or all at once at the end of a class, or if you don't speak to them nicely, etc. etc. So the picture that is emerging is that students like to be corrected as long as you do it in the way they want you to.
Can we be satisfied that if we're doing what the students like, then that is truly the best thing for them?
My young niece likes candy.
She doesn't much care for broccoli.
Larry Latham
Can we be satisfied that if we're doing what the students like, then that is truly the best thing for them?
My young niece likes candy.
She doesn't much care for broccoli. Larry Latham
LarryLatham wrote:I've seen myself that students like to be corrected. Well, sort of. They like it if you do it in a certain way. Some people here have mentioned that students get frustrated if you correct them too much, or at the wrong time, or all at once at the end of a class, or if you don't speak to them nicely, etc. etc. So the picture that is emerging is that students like to be corrected as long as you do it in the way they want you to.
Can we be satisfied that if we're doing what the students like, then that is truly the best thing for them?
My young niece likes candy.
Larry Latham
Yes, I'd say it's all about using the appropriate form of tact and projecting one's self in a "good" way. Everyone has their own "good" way.
when, how, why, tone, - These all count and are approached differently with different groups and individuals.
As a language learner myself, I always appreciate being corrected.