Threads--What do we get from them?

[LarryLatham]

Have you noticed that for the vast majority of debates staged in these threads here at ESL Cafe (but elsewhere just as well, of course), the result is not resolution but abandonment. Opinions, stuck so tightly to their holders, rarely seem to be loosened or dislodged by this process. One asserts himself and then defends his thesis as if it were territory, and submission would be tantamount to death.

In the main, it doesn't seem to be learning that takes place here. At times it rather looks like would-be alphas in a troop of wild monkeys flailing and screeching to assert their importance, only to abandon the exercise before it comes to blows. Only in that case, something gets decided.

So what is our motivation here? Why do we do it?

Larry Latham

[revel]

Good morning all.

I've got time on my hands these days, perhaps that's why I do it.

If I were to bring these subjects up with my fellow teachers at work we might just come to blows! So I rarely make comments at work, since I have to see those other people every day and it's best not to have heated debates about such ideas as "students learn to comprehend before they learn to speak" (one of my personal pet peeves against a fellow worker) since I know that that person can get quite passionate on the subject.

On the other hand, my personal complaint about these threads is not the exposition of conviction but rather the lack of iniciative of so many ESL teachers who sign up. They seem to fall into two broad groups, those who know everything and those who know nothing. Those who know everything write lengthy essays that assert this or that theory and put a full stop, and there it is, you either agree with me or you don't. And those who know nothing, a majority of posters, ask us for help with their work as teachers. Those who know everything have given me interesting insight into aspects of ESL teaching that I wouldn't have otherwise considered. Those who know nothing, well sometimes one clears up one's own ideas through explaining them to people who ask "what do I do with an adult who doesn't get the present perfect?" or "what to do with an unmotivated conversation class?" The truth is, those who know nothing ask their question, maybe even read our replies, maybe even say thanks, then bow out, never to post again. Hmmm.

Over the years I have discovered that ESL teachers tend to be an alturistic lot in general, perhaps serving their own egos by being able to help novices, chuckling deep down in the innermost part of their souls at the way experiences repeat themselves, but basically happy to lend a helping hand. I would say to those who know nothing that they ought to browse through the cookbook of ideas here before asking their questions. I think those who know nothing ought to take a more active part in finding answers to their doubts. Those that know everything, well, me included in that group, perhaps we need to be less dogmatic in our writing tone, more open to other ideas even if we aren't going to change our own. So easy to sit at home in front of the computer and shout at the monitor "you idiot! no one in their right mind would ever say such a thing, let alone consider it correct!", such a challenge to set aside fixed ideas and let the mind wander over others' ideas that are probably just as valid and might just take us to the learning that Larry laments as not taking place.

Don't know if I've answered your question, Larry, or if I've just managed to find an opening to make my own complaint (about those who only sign up to get advice, never to share). I didn't say earlier, I am speaking almost exclusively about new members (you'll notice that those who ask simple questions tend to be those who signed up the same day their question appears!), older members have developed relationships and I look in daily to find how those relationships continue to grow amongst us.

peace,
revel.

[LarryLatham]

Thanks for your reply, revel. One of the fears of starting a thread like this one is that it'll be ignored. The worst thing that could happen is to see that there have been 37 views and no replies!

If I look at my own contributions in the light of your framework, I believe I may bounce back and forth between knowing everything (although, to be sure, others will not agree), and, as in the case of this particular thread, knowing nothing.

But I say again, it doesn't appear to me that much learning is going on here at the ESL Cafe forum. That may be OK if our true motives are elsewhere, but if that is the case, then do we delude ourselves into thinking that we participate here to advance our understanding?

Then again, maybe I'm the only one deceiving himself thus.

Larry Latham

[wjserson]

Don't worry Larry, about half of those 37 views were made by me while I was trying to reply behind my boss's back.

I can honestly say that at one point, one of the reasons why I participated in these discussions was because I wanted to offer a different point of view for the students and teachers. Having studied linguistics (especially the problems caused by it in many societies), I wanted to make a slight dent in the prejudice-based comments made by some of the participants. I'd read comments such as : "Everybody knows Arabic is a harsher language than English" or "Chinese is so much harder to learn than Russian", "It's wrong to use your coloquial English with any students", "I only speak standard English to non-native speakers", etc

Comments like these aren't based on any research whatsoever and place certain languages and dialects higher in a ladder than some others. As one of the most important instruments of mankind, language and subjective points of view regarding it cause so many problems among people, like politics and religion sometimes do. I, myself, was somewhat oppresed by my school manager for the way I chose to speak in front of students outside of the classroom (too many 'eh's)

Anyway, long story short, I honestly found myself hesitating and eventually avoiding making any comments regarding such things as "proper usage" and "mistakes" and "what sounds better" because it was just easier that way. How can I participate when I usually disagree with the term 'proper' and 'sounds nice' in the first place? Rather than even answer the question, I found myself objecting to the question.



So that is my explanation of what used to motivate

[Sally Olsen]

I really can't see why you would say that no one is learning here because if you are looking for one person who is, I am! Just to see the questions, even if they are posted in desperation when people join up, gives you a real insight into the difficulties of teaching English either as ESL or EFL or the myriad of other forms it seems to take. It is really heart warming to see how many people care and spend time. I find it really funny sometimes and of course, people who have disguised their identities can take out their frustrations with smart or sharp answers. If it lets them let off steam in a safe way, I am all for it and certainly seems to promote discussion. This site is a gold mine for teachers who want to teach teachers. There is no holding back and being polite or hiding something from the boss or just because you don't want to offend people in the country you are teaching in. From the point of view of examining writing it is superb as people don't usually take time to correct their writing and you see excellent examples of errors which can be dissected and explored to see what is going on which will then help you in your teaching. It is written in every day language usually and so you are not contending with high academic language. Even if people are rude, that is what a poor speaker of English might face when coming to an English speaking country and so is a good reality check. That others rush to their defense is also a reality I hope. But who knows it all - not even you revel! There must be something you learned from others as you read through the answers and even the questions. I would never even think to ask some of those questions and yet some are basic and you wonder at how some people look at the world and so have to figure that out. Fascinating stuff. Keep it up!

[Lorikeet]

...One of the fears of starting a thread like this one is that it'll be ignored. The worst thing that could happen is to see that there have been 37 views and no replies!
...
But I say again, it doesn't appear to me that much learning is going on here at the ESL Cafe forum. . ..

Hmm, well I bet a lot of those views have been mine, and my almost responses. Granted you said "it doesn't appear to me that much learning is going on" so I can't say you are wrong--after all, it may certainly not appear that way to you. I may disagree with different people's interpretations and explanations and I may not respond at all, but that doesn't mean I didn't think about it. Sometimes it's a little too nitpicky for me; other times it's really interesting to see what's acceptable in different places. Anything that makes me reflect on my teaching can lead to learning.

As for one-time posters, if someone has a problem and feels comfortable posting and never posts again, so be it. I just wish they'd poke around a bit to see what they can find in the archives. On the other hand, on certain subjects I just give them a link. I don't mind posting once, but posting the same thing a dozen times can be tiresome

Lorikeet

[LarryLatham]

I really can't see why you would say that no one is learning here because if you are looking for one person who is, I am!

It isn't very surprising to note that someone who so clearly knows a great deal, both about English and about teaching it, says she is learning from these exercises. Perhaps that is why she has achieved what she obviously has. Here is someone who does teach me, every time she posts.

I, on the other hand, find myself feeling either hot or cold. There are times when I can hardly wait to check the site to see what has transpired since I last logged on. At other times, I really get to feeling like, "Who cares?" But what bothers me most about that is the realization that I'm high when I think I'm on a roll with some particular thread. But that's not when I'm learning. It's not that I don't pick up ideas from other posters here. Some of the posts are quite brilliant (but certainly not all of them). Some of the insight manifested here is inspiring (but certainly not all). There have even been a couple of times when I've had to reverse my position on an issue as a result of the persuasion from other posters. But that's rare. Most of the time I feel like I'm just blah, blah, blah. And maybe a few people look at it. Maybe some object to it. Maybe even some agree. But most just look and stay silent, as revel has complained above. Who cares? For that matter, why should anybody care?

Are we really engaged together in exploring English and language teaching, each for the purpose of self development? Occasionally it feels that way, but not often. So what else are we doing?

Larry Latham

[woodcutter]

I think it's just a question of style Larry, or willingness to lose face. Your style is admirable, but perhaps difficult to emulate from a position of less strength. Everyone learns from having ideas criticized, though it may take time to sink in. I for one put them here only in the hope of being told off cogently by my betters.

[LarryLatham]

You're a strong man, woodcutter. A tip of my hat.

Larry Latham

[revel]

Good morning everyone!

In an effort to make his product better, my boss has encouraged his teachers to attend workshops, exchange ideas, take classes, read books, develop class content, etc. His has been a diplomatic move, one of our lot needs to pick up some information but it would not be fair to say to him "you have a lot to learn". My fellow teachers have attended workshops and have asked for special training on certain subjects that trouble them in their work.

I avoid the ESL training because I am well trained. I can read the description of most training modules and imagine nearly everything the teacher is going to say, in many cases because I myself have given such modules to teachers. I don't doubt that one or two or even a dozen pieces of new information could be picked up and is picked up, but since I specialize in one aspect of ESL teaching and because I do it well, and because I have many other interests in life, I don't particularly seek out the new and interesting simply because it's new and interesting. I did take a course this past year in Teacher Training, over the internet, mostly because I wanted to see how the Spanish concept of teaching might differ from the American concept. However, though useful and instructing, the only real new information was the names and theories of certain thinkers on learning and teaching.

I guess what I am saying is that I, myself, don't take advantage of learning in a formal atmosphere of workshops or classes. I do learn though, and Sally is right, I do learn from these threads. She also is clear in marking the bright side of some of the things I was being critical about. And perhaps I was being critical about them because of my own personal focus on learning: that is, that it is my responsibility. I may have been wrong in blanket-critiquing the newbees and their way of presenting themselves, though I still think they should look at the FAQs before asking something that's already been discussed or suggested, but well,

Oh, no, I don't know it all, god forbid! I was admitting to belonging to the group of people (the knowitalls) who sometimes gets carried away in being erudite. Knowingitallism is akin to perfectionism, how dull it must be when there is no longer room for improvement!

peace,
revel.

[LarryLatham]

Oh, no, I don't know it all, god forbid! I was admitting to belonging to the group of people (the knowitalls) who sometimes gets carried away in being erudite. Knowingitallism is akin to perfectionism, how dull it must be when there is no longer room for improvement!

Amen, brother.

Perhaps I'm just whining because things aren't quite the way I'd like them. And what I'd like would be for these discussions to be carried out to the point where either resolution is achieved, or participants agree that none of them know enough to reach resolution. Instead, oftentimes, they just die out when those on one side of an issue simply abandon ship.

Of course no person could know all about English. Or about teaching. Both subjects are too vast for any single mind, however sharp. This is exactly what makes it a professional necessity, I believe, for each of us to be learning, or at least try, over our entire careers as teachers. However good we are, we could be better. And despite your protests, revel, you're here, and you seem open to argument. That's what it means, to me, to be professional. Teachers aren't professionals just because they're teachers (...in the teaching 'profession'). Some of them are professional because they continue to learn in their field(s). Others simply aren't. They go to class every day and follow the (often pre-programed) lesson. Period. Perhaps they attend institutionally sponsored training sessions. That's not near enough. That's just following the party line. Being open enough to accept good argument for change is a sign of quality. Defending your territory isn't, if you defend it at all costs without seriously considering dissenting ideas. Defending solid ideas against the imposition of trashy or insufficiently considered new fashions is. Not giving a damn isn't.

Larry Latham

[Lorikeet]

Perhaps I'm just whining because things aren't quite the way I'd like them. And what I'd like would be for these discussions to be carried out to the point where either resolution is achieved, or participants agree that none of them know enough to reach resolution. Instead, oftentimes, they just die out when those on one side of an issue simply abandon ship.

Larry Latham

I've never been much of a debater. I remember one colleague of mine who loved to debate. He would state his position, I would state mine. He would embellish and explain; I would embellish and explain. After all was said, he would reiterate his points. I would then stop. He wasn't going to change my mind, and I wasn't going to change his. After reading posts with new thoughts on the subject and different ways of looking at it, there comes a time when nothing new is being said. That's when I leave the thread . I don't consider it "abandoning ship". Mostly, argument for the sake of argument is no fun for me. Thinking about the different explanations is interesting, even if I think some of them don't make any sense.

Lorikeet

[revel]

Good morning all!

Yes, Larry, despite my protests, here I am, and for the reasons you cite. In the world of the arts (I remember that English was called "Language Arts" when I was in school), a true artist never stops studying. The ballet dancer goes to class every day, the singer has voice lessons, the painter draws and redraws the subject. In my case, it is the year's challenge. Last year, the challenge was to make my way of teaching adjust itself to the texts that my students bought from the administration. This year, my focus is on long, complicated role-play exercises. Each school year I set myself a challenge and then investigate how to reach the goals that that challenge implies. As I've mentioned, sometimes explaining things to novices helps me to be more clear to myself and my challenges. Reading "nitpickin'" arguements over the use of a tense or mode or a time marker or whatever helps me to put such items in perspective. Participating directly in such sometimes feels as lorikeet points out, like arguement for the sake of it, sometimes I've time for such and sometimes I've not. But despite my protests, I hope to contribute to making these threads active and alive. We are about fifteen who contribute to that. That's not so many considering the thousands of ESL teachers out there, as well as the many who have signed up to this community. Perhaps the question is, how to we stimulate these people to participate? I'm not at all tired of reading from Larry, or metal or woodcutter or lorikeet or sally or any of the others on the top-ten list or not on the top ten list. Would like some stimulation from the others as well!

peace,
revel.

[LarryLatham]

...He wasn't going to change my mind, and I wasn't going to change his...

Pardon my taking this quote out of context, Lorikeet, but I want to focus on this part of what you said. Don't you think maybe this is a striking difficulty with this type of discussion? Taken all together, I have some sympathy for your comments, and I admit to dropping out of some threads myself for the same reasons you mention. But if I am not going to change your mind, and you are not going to change mine, then why are we here? I ask again: Is it primarily to defend our territory?

If so, is that OK? Here?

Larry Latham

[Lorikeet]

But if I am not going to change your mind, and you are not going to change mine, then why are we here? I ask again: Is it primarily to defend our territory?


Larry Latham

Well how do we know we won't change our minds at the start? If you don't state your opinion first, I won't know if it's something that will change my opinion or not. If we discuss a while and it's clear we disagree and won't change, then the above holds. There is also the possibility that it will develop in a different way. That can happen too