Teacher Discussion Forums

A puzzle.

Near and far with "this" and "that".with "this" and "that".

1. Two people are looking at a group photo taken at a wedding.

Sue (pointing to each person): "That's Tom, my older brother and that's his wife Sheila. That's Gran, Cousin Frank and that's...what's her name? Ah yes, that's Myoko, his girlfriend. That there is..."
2. Another two people, in another time and place, are looking at a different group photo taken at a different wedding.

Barry (pointing to each person): "This is Madge, my younger sister and this is her husband Mark. This is Mom and Pop of course, Cousin Elmo and this, this is...what's her name? Ah yes, this is Chloe, his girlfriend. This here is..."

How would you explain to a student why one speaker should use "that" and another speaker use "this" in almost identical situations?

Hey there metal!

Are you looking for controversy or what?

My own explanation:

"You can use this or that to fill in the subject slot when doing this (or that) kind of explanation. Some would suggest that using this brings the people in the photograph closer to the person explaining or the present time, while that might distance the explainer from the same people in the photo, but the speaker is not necessarily thinking consciously in those terms and such an interpretation is unnecessary when understanding the communication, which is probably the identification of the people in the photo. There's probably a finger involved in this exchange as well, sometimes used when this and that are used to talk about things near or far from the speaker. It used in this context would be inappropriate."

Words don't always mean exactly what they mean.

peace,
revel.

Are you looking for controversy or what?

As much as is possible.


Thanks for the explanation of how you see it. I guess it is a random thing, and this is language learning, not psychology, but I just wondered if we can infer anything at all from the "choice" the speaker would make.

Maybe only arbitrary, eh?

If two people are close, any picture in front of them is a distance away from them both, to some degree, so in such a situation both "that" and "this" feel natural. In fact, situations where a clear cut "that one right over there" or "this one right next to me" are necessary are pretty rare.

Good morning.

And yet, I hear my mother's family (who were a bit hillbilly) saying "this here" and "that there", as in:

"This here meatloaf is dry!"

"That there boy's gonna be trouble some day!"

Oh, what a colorful language we use.

peace,
revel.

revel wrote:Good morning.

And yet, I hear my mother's family (who were a bit hillbilly) saying "this here" and "that there", as in:

"This here meatloaf is dry!"

"That there boy's gonna be trouble some day!"

Oh, what a colorful language we use.

peace,
revel.

But do you think "This here meatloaf is dry" would be used when the meatloaf is in the speaker's mouth (presuming, of course, that said speaker doesn't mind speaking with his mouthful), and "That there meatloaf is dry" could be used if it was on the stove, sitting there waiting (perhaps forever?) for someone to get seconds? In which case, if said speaker was standing over the forlorn meatloaf on the stove, could he also say, "This here meatloaf is dry."?

Lorikeet

Good afternoon.

Naturally, in order to say "this here meatloaf" one has to have one's mouth full of it or it would not sound correct. I can assure you that those I've heard say such (in my family) would have no trouble at all with speaking with their mouths full. And you're right, in my examples, "this here" and "that there" are making reference to where the meatloaf is in relation to the person chewing.

Thanks for not commenting on "that there boy" since I am obviously the boy in question....

peace,
revel.

woodcutter wrote: (...) In fact, situations where a clear cut "that one right over there" or "this one right next to me" are necessary are pretty rare.

I agree, but are those two example indicating "one and not the other"?

It's a little more complicated in a photo with, for example, one person as the subject.

That's my Dad, he died last year.

This is my Dad, he died last year.

But do you think "This here meatloaf is dry" would be used when the meatloaf is in the speaker's mouth (presuming, of course, that said speaker doesn't mind speaking with his mouthful), and "That there meatloaf is dry" could be used if it was on the stove, sitting there waiting (perhaps forever?) for someone to get seconds? In which case, if said speaker was standing over the forlorn meatloaf on the stove, could he also say, "This here meatloaf is dry."?

Lorikeet said:

And what if Mombilly was on the phone to Popbilly, who was still at the farmsale and late for dinner, and said to him:

That there meatloaf is drying up.

It would seem odd to me.

If she used: This there meatloaf is drying up.

I would be happier.

???

metal56 wrote:

But do you think "This here meatloaf is dry" would be used when the meatloaf is in the speaker's mouth (presuming, of course, that said speaker doesn't mind speaking with his mouthful), and "That there meatloaf is dry" could be used if it was on the stove, sitting there waiting (perhaps forever?) for someone to get seconds? In which case, if said speaker was standing over the forlorn meatloaf on the stove, could he also say, "This here meatloaf is dry."?

Lorikeet said:

And what if Mombilly was on the phone to Popbilly, who was still at the farmsale and late for dinner, and said to him:

That there meatloaf is drying up.



It would seem odd to me.

If she used: This there meatloaf is drying up.

I would be happier.

???

Huh? I thought the point was that this here and that there went together. Why would you be happier with This there meatloaf is drying up. Or did I miss something?

Hi all,

Just came across this thread, and (of course) just had to put in my two cents' worth.

What I believe about this (and what I always told my students, who seemed to be OK with the idea) is that this and that do always express feelings of closeness and remoteness, respectively. However, we must recognize that there are many kinds of closeness, and many possible reasons for feeling "remote" about something (or someone).

We cannot always know exactly why a speaker says things the way he does. It does not always come down to some consistent explanation which can be reduced to grammatical rule. We know what he says...period. We can, however, postulate that because, for example he chose to say, "This is my Gramps", or "This here meatloaf...", or even something like, "This is true..." he must necessarily have, in his mind at that particular moment, some particular reason for regarding the speaking situation as calling for an element of closeness (relatively speaking, of course). When looking at a photo, we all understand that the "closeness" cannot have anything to do with space, since all the images appear on the same plane, unless the photo clearly shows some people standing behind others, which would offer a plausible reason for the choice made. So we have to turn to other possible meanings of "close". Perhaps Gramps is someone he experiences with particularly warm emotion, for example. And conversely, if he chooses, "That is my Dad", or "That there meatloaf", or "That's true", we can equally well infer that he has some reason, even if it is private to him and undiscernable to an outside listener or reader, for having a momentary feeling of distance or remoteness. We may not ever be able to point to it explicitly, but we can suppose that it's there, for whatever reason. The point is, he did choose that instead of this. There must be some reason why. It cannot be a mental coin-flip.

And, as has been pointed out, the practical result of the choice is often only minutely different. "This here meatloaf" and "That there meatloaf" are still the same meatloaf, unless there are clearly two (or more) of them, and one is more distant in space, in which case no confusion will exist about which is which.

What we must not do as teachers, I firmly believe, is tell our students that there is no difference. There most certainly is a difference. But the difference in many speaking occasions may be important only to the speaker.

Larry Latham

Good morning all!

I had a friend in Barcelona who worked as a psycologist in a local prison. She had the annoying habit of not listenting to what people said to her but rather trying to find the subtext of word choice. So, she would not receive the information on the texture of the meatloaf but would rather be concerned with if the person talking with their mouth full were emotionally attached to the meal (this here) or had an Electra complex (that there). It was often frustrating to talk with her, since you could say the simplest sentence and she would glean the most complex communication.

Larry, I agree that they are not the same, and our basic "that/this" "closeness/farness" explanations are probably the best, speaking about physical reality as much as speaking about emotional reality or any other reality. And, as you also point out, a choice has been made and that choice may be totally personal and none of my business, and anyway, the sentence stress is on "meatloaf", usually, and that's what I should be listening to. I may (in the case of family) already know what this or that person thinks of mom's meatloaf and what is really important in this moment is my own choice of dumping some ketchup on it or not.

(editing: Larry, I'm not comparing you to my friend! )
peace,
revel.

(editing: Larry, I'm not comparing you to my friend! )

Thanks, Revel, for that clarification. It hadn't occurred to me until you mentioned it.

Larry Latham
P.S. Was she helping the inmates, or was she busy turning them into hardened criminals?

Annoying as your friend may have been, revel, I think that I have done the same thing many times and I can't help but infer from the words how the speaker is feeling about the meatloaf or the people in the photo. Of course, we could pick up clues from the body language as well. It is a survival technique that is very important and perhaps is more a feminine method of coping with society. If your life is centered on the people in your family and you care about how they view your meatloaf, saying, "That there meatloaf" would send chills up your spine, nevermind that is was dry. Of course, we rarely have time to teach these kinds of things in a busy and short class but they are there and they are universal. The body language may be different and certainly the words are different but they are all important and cause many misunderstandings and difficulties if you don't know how to interpret them. Luckily second language speakers are often excused if they don't use the correct forms of either language or body language but not knowing the proper interpretation can eventually cause them difficulties. It is a fun thing to compare and discuss and as always we are more alike than we are different.

I don't know if this is too tangential, but one thing I've noticed about Polish people (I teach in Poland) is that they seem to use more non- verbal exclaimatives than native English speakers. Particularly closed mouth exclaimatives.

Most of these are the same. Anyone who has heard the wrong answer sound on Family fortunes will know what the "no" sound is. ( I'm afraid I don't know how to write it.) It also indicates disagreement. The rough opposite, "uhuh" is different in English and Polish, and can lead to confusion. In English "uhuh" usually means "I am listening", while in Polish it means "yes". The result is that you can ask a yes/no question, and get "uhuh" as the reply. This is often interpreted by native English speakers as failure to understand. The English speaker thinks that they've asked a question that requires a definite answer, and the Polish speaker has indicated that they are listening instead of actually answering the question so they can't understand. The question is then repeated or phrased in another way, and the Pole can't understand why.