Is this acceptable;
"My birthday is on the the 25th March 1989".
My problem is with the use of the "is". I feel is should be "was" as the definition of birthday, at least as far as I can find from the many sources I have checked, seems, in essence, to come down to the day of one's birth or the anniversary of ones birth. Given that putting a year would imply the actual date and year one was born, and so not the annual anniversary, can we use "Is"?
All responses appreciated.
Life and death and birthdays
Moderators: Dimitris, maneki neko2, Lorikeet, Enrico Palazzo, superpeach, cecil2, Mr. Kalgukshi2
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Duncan Powrie
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My problem is with the whole sentence!
Where the hell did you get it from? Be honest now, did you make it up? If not - if it is in some book or was produced by a student - burn the book or slap some sense into the student.
I am a bit loathe to offer any "analysis", because I feel something as obviously unattested is just not worth the effort, but as you seem to be in need of help (
), here are a few, very obvious, comments:
Knock the year off and you have a perfectly acceptable sentence - birthdays come around once a year, you know, so using "is" here should be no surprise. "LarryLatham" can show y'all some wrestling holds instead if this is too painful for anyone to accept.
Still keeping the year out of it, change "25th March" to just the date (without the month) or e.g. "(last) Friday", and the use of "was" becomes imaginable: "It was my birthday on the 25th/(last) Friday."
I find it hard to imagine anyone stating the month, even if it is "now" sometime in early April (re. your original sentence), because I don't think news about birthday dates (even forgotten ones) retain their relevance for long (i.e. probably not much beyond April 24th). But I suppose you could argue that people would be still talking about it after April 25th, and thus need to mention "March", as opposed to "April" (and then May, June, July etc) if you lead a very boring life.
In short, dates of birth are different from birthdays, at least in the way they are talked about. People do say "I was BORN on...blah blah blah, 19XX", but they don't say "My birthday is blah blah blah, 19XX" >>> "[My birthday's/was] [on Sunday/the 25th]" is probably what most people say (choice of "is" or "was" depends on whether statement is relaying a simple fact, a coming event or a past event. NO YEAR IS MENTIONED). Just my guess. (Excuse me whilst I shake the sarcasm dripping from my keyboard).
Trust me on this.
Where the hell did you get it from? Be honest now, did you make it up? If not - if it is in some book or was produced by a student - burn the book or slap some sense into the student.
I am a bit loathe to offer any "analysis", because I feel something as obviously unattested is just not worth the effort, but as you seem to be in need of help (
), here are a few, very obvious, comments:Knock the year off and you have a perfectly acceptable sentence - birthdays come around once a year, you know, so using "is" here should be no surprise. "LarryLatham" can show y'all some wrestling holds instead if this is too painful for anyone to accept.
Still keeping the year out of it, change "25th March" to just the date (without the month) or e.g. "(last) Friday", and the use of "was" becomes imaginable: "It was my birthday on the 25th/(last) Friday."
I find it hard to imagine anyone stating the month, even if it is "now" sometime in early April (re. your original sentence), because I don't think news about birthday dates (even forgotten ones) retain their relevance for long (i.e. probably not much beyond April 24th). But I suppose you could argue that people would be still talking about it after April 25th, and thus need to mention "March", as opposed to "April" (and then May, June, July etc) if you lead a very boring life.
In short, dates of birth are different from birthdays, at least in the way they are talked about. People do say "I was BORN on...blah blah blah, 19XX", but they don't say "My birthday is blah blah blah, 19XX" >>> "[My birthday's/was] [on Sunday/the 25th]" is probably what most people say (choice of "is" or "was" depends on whether statement is relaying a simple fact, a coming event or a past event. NO YEAR IS MENTIONED). Just my guess. (Excuse me whilst I shake the sarcasm dripping from my keyboard).
Trust me on this.
Last edited by Duncan Powrie on Fri Sep 24, 2004 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Duncan Powrie
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I hope you aren't too offended by my above reply, John, it's just I feel this really is too basic a question to be posted - anyone with even an elementary knowledge of English should know what the facts are.
Your previous thread (On Monday/On Mondays) was pushing things a bit, but this one here really is a non-starter (unless I have totally misread something and gotten hold of the wrong end of the stick entirely).
Your previous thread (On Monday/On Mondays) was pushing things a bit, but this one here really is a non-starter (unless I have totally misread something and gotten hold of the wrong end of the stick entirely).
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Stephen Jones
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Well, although no angel, unlike Duncan I do fear to tread here.
I suspect that the example was not made up by John but came from that perpetual source of problematic utterances, one of the students.
Substitute 'date of birth' for 'birthday' and it becomes clearer. (Admittedly, in real life the bureaucrats simply bark at you "Date of Birth?!" with no verb at all but we can always hope for the occasional polite one.)
"Is" in my opinion is normal here, as, unless like women of a certain age, convicted fraudsters, member of the intelligence services or wannabe terrorists your date of birth is elastic chronologically, you would have no need to use 'was'.
This is the kind of phrase that occurs in the classroom, where it seems mamy more official forms are filled out than ever are in real life, but in the context of form-filling we would be just as likely to say "What's your date of birth?" as "When were you born?".
I suspect that the example was not made up by John but came from that perpetual source of problematic utterances, one of the students.
Substitute 'date of birth' for 'birthday' and it becomes clearer. (Admittedly, in real life the bureaucrats simply bark at you "Date of Birth?!" with no verb at all but we can always hope for the occasional polite one.)
"Is" in my opinion is normal here, as, unless like women of a certain age, convicted fraudsters, member of the intelligence services or wannabe terrorists your date of birth is elastic chronologically, you would have no need to use 'was'.
This is the kind of phrase that occurs in the classroom, where it seems mamy more official forms are filled out than ever are in real life, but in the context of form-filling we would be just as likely to say "What's your date of birth?" as "When were you born?".
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Duncan Powrie
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Eloquent as ever, Stephen, but I still can't quite believe that it is a genuine utterence from a student. The official (S.O.B of a D.O.B) and unofficial (birthday) contexts and the phrases they each involve are so dissimilar that, if both were taught well (and probably only the second would be dwelt on at length), how on earth could the student get confused? Unless...
I couldn't quite understand the end of John's post - it's like he is focusing on the possible definitions of "birthday", and in the process forgetting the usual co-text in likely contexts, which leads to a consideration of the impossible in an effort to justify and make sense of the definition. Even if definitions were perfect (which they are not - the dictum of non-circularity kind of sees to that!), it would make little difference to real-world meaning and use. A dog is a dog (point point, woof woof, ow! it bit me! Kick yelp), a birthday a birthday etc.
I couldn't quite understand the end of John's post - it's like he is focusing on the possible definitions of "birthday", and in the process forgetting the usual co-text in likely contexts, which leads to a consideration of the impossible in an effort to justify and make sense of the definition. Even if definitions were perfect (which they are not - the dictum of non-circularity kind of sees to that!), it would make little difference to real-world meaning and use. A dog is a dog (point point, woof woof, ow! it bit me! Kick yelp), a birthday a birthday etc.
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Duncan Powrie
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I've remarked before about how examples get subtly altered in the process of people responding, and I've just noticed that I'm guilty of doing it myself in this very thread. Unlike with some people, though, there are powerful, subconscious reasons for me doing so:
Original sentence: My birthday's on the 25th March (1989).
1. A: When's your birthday?
B: ((My birthday's/)It's on) the 25th (of March)/March (the) 25th. (simple Q & A)
2. A: It's my birthday on the 25th. (="I'm telling you this because I'm about to tell you something else in relation e.g. and I'm having a party, or I've asked my mum to get me a new bike")
3. A: It was my birthday last/on Friday. (="I'm telling you this because you forgot or didn't know")
I don't think using "My" to begin 2 and 3 would be a natural way to structure the information or achieve the best "focus"; and in 1, it would just smack of a tedious insistence on full-sentence answers.
Again, this all points to a real need to keep digging and thinking, so we can provide students with the best possible examples.* I have used just my intuition here, but I suspect a thorough analysis of the data would support at least some of these intuitions.
* When I say "the best possible examples", I don't necessarily mean native-speaker ones, but rather examples that are grammatically consistent, and all end up making sense/"agreeing" at at least a notional level. I don't know of a better way to begin approaching this than with natural data; we might decide to "enhance" the data in some ways, but such idealizing would, I would argue, be fraught with real dangers (as you may well be able to imagine).
Original sentence: My birthday's on the 25th March (1989).
1. A: When's your birthday?
B: ((My birthday's/)It's on) the 25th (of March)/March (the) 25th. (simple Q & A)
2. A: It's my birthday on the 25th. (="I'm telling you this because I'm about to tell you something else in relation e.g. and I'm having a party, or I've asked my mum to get me a new bike")
3. A: It was my birthday last/on Friday. (="I'm telling you this because you forgot or didn't know")
I don't think using "My" to begin 2 and 3 would be a natural way to structure the information or achieve the best "focus"; and in 1, it would just smack of a tedious insistence on full-sentence answers.
Again, this all points to a real need to keep digging and thinking, so we can provide students with the best possible examples.* I have used just my intuition here, but I suspect a thorough analysis of the data would support at least some of these intuitions.
* When I say "the best possible examples", I don't necessarily mean native-speaker ones, but rather examples that are grammatically consistent, and all end up making sense/"agreeing" at at least a notional level. I don't know of a better way to begin approaching this than with natural data; we might decide to "enhance" the data in some ways, but such idealizing would, I would argue, be fraught with real dangers (as you may well be able to imagine).
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john martin
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As you already understand Duncan, your posts are indeed offensive. Why you would think students incapable of such a structure, and why you would belittle a teacher for seeking advice before marking says a lot about you.
To take one of the many definitions of birthday that I found, but representative of them all, I offer below Mirriam Webster's:
1 a : the day of a person's birth b : a day of origin
2 : an anniversary of a birth <her 21st birthday>
From the second definition it is apparent that the present simple is acceptable: it being an anniversary.
My concern becomes when we use a specific year.
When are you born?
When were you born?
I think most would agree that the first is unacceptable, but the second indeed acceptable.
I was born on the 25th April, 1985.
Now read carefully here Duncan and you may pick up why I looked into the definition of birthday. If it can be used to mean the actual day of birth, then it is fair to say that the putting of a year to that day is also ok. (As in the above "I was born" sentence)
If birthday is taken to mean the "your day of origin " I am suggesting that as a past event with a specific time given to it, and with your "origin" only occurring once, it is much better to use the past simple.
To look it at from another angle, we see death as a one off event. We are all familiar with the ER quote "Time of death is .."
But an hour later would it be acceptable to say "What is the time of death?"
I feel not. It should be, "What WAS the time of death?"
Later we can say "The anniversary of the death is 25th March", to mean a recurring event. However, it is not the death that is recurring, but the anniversary.
So when we use a year with a birthday then I feel we are referring to the "day of origin" and as this can only happen once, it is better to use the past simple.
Forgive me if my arguments are too simplistic and should never have been raised. You can always just offer help or ignore them.
To take one of the many definitions of birthday that I found, but representative of them all, I offer below Mirriam Webster's:
1 a : the day of a person's birth b : a day of origin
2 : an anniversary of a birth <her 21st birthday>
From the second definition it is apparent that the present simple is acceptable: it being an anniversary.
My concern becomes when we use a specific year.
When are you born?
When were you born?
I think most would agree that the first is unacceptable, but the second indeed acceptable.
I was born on the 25th April, 1985.
Now read carefully here Duncan and you may pick up why I looked into the definition of birthday. If it can be used to mean the actual day of birth, then it is fair to say that the putting of a year to that day is also ok. (As in the above "I was born" sentence)
If birthday is taken to mean the "your day of origin " I am suggesting that as a past event with a specific time given to it, and with your "origin" only occurring once, it is much better to use the past simple.
To look it at from another angle, we see death as a one off event. We are all familiar with the ER quote "Time of death is .."
But an hour later would it be acceptable to say "What is the time of death?"
I feel not. It should be, "What WAS the time of death?"
Later we can say "The anniversary of the death is 25th March", to mean a recurring event. However, it is not the death that is recurring, but the anniversary.
So when we use a year with a birthday then I feel we are referring to the "day of origin" and as this can only happen once, it is better to use the past simple.
Forgive me if my arguments are too simplistic and should never have been raised. You can always just offer help or ignore them.
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Duncan Powrie
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John, if you read most of my posts, you will see that I am often at pains to avoid causing offence, so I am sorry that you felt unduly belittled - please don't take it too personally! You are right that I could (should?) have just not bothered to respond at all.
However, when I see something that does not seem to be offering any concrete help (to students), I do feel that something perhaps needs to be said. I don't see why you need to consult dictionaries (including the "Mirriam"
) or start worrying about definitions etc in this instance - are you trying to impress or burden the unfortunate students with a greater, "interesting" range of meanings and quite remote (to their needs) "possibilities"? There is no need for the "authority" of the dictionary definitions here, in my opinion. All I am saying is that other native speaker teachers were bound to have a few (to the point if not curt) "suggestions" to "snap you out of it", and some can generally be a lot more direct than I usually am. 
I read the bit you pointed out reasonably carefully, but it still does not alter the fact that "birthday" does not readily appear in the "I was born..." sentence (because the latter, as we all know, does not really concern a "birthday" at all). I suppose a person could say "I was born on the 25th of September, 1967" and continue by saying, "so, the 25th of Sept is my birthday, you know", if they really wanted to.
I don't really follow your "day of origin" tangent, or why you are now mentioning times of death or anniversaries of deaths etc, but there are things like "date of manufacture" or "country of origin" often stamped on products (such as tins of baked beans). I hope this helps.
However, when I see something that does not seem to be offering any concrete help (to students), I do feel that something perhaps needs to be said. I don't see why you need to consult dictionaries (including the "Mirriam"
) or start worrying about definitions etc in this instance - are you trying to impress or burden the unfortunate students with a greater, "interesting" range of meanings and quite remote (to their needs) "possibilities"? There is no need for the "authority" of the dictionary definitions here, in my opinion. All I am saying is that other native speaker teachers were bound to have a few (to the point if not curt) "suggestions" to "snap you out of it", and some can generally be a lot more direct than I usually am. I read the bit you pointed out reasonably carefully, but it still does not alter the fact that "birthday" does not readily appear in the "I was born..." sentence (because the latter, as we all know, does not really concern a "birthday" at all). I suppose a person could say "I was born on the 25th of September, 1967" and continue by saying, "so, the 25th of Sept is my birthday, you know", if they really wanted to.
I don't really follow your "day of origin" tangent, or why you are now mentioning times of death or anniversaries of deaths etc, but there are things like "date of manufacture" or "country of origin" often stamped on products (such as tins of baked beans). I hope this helps.
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JuanTwoThree
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john martin
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Duncan, I quote you below:
"However, when I see something that does not seem to be offering any concrete help (to students), I do feel that something perhaps needs to be said. I don't see why you need to consult dictionaries (including the "Mirriam" ) or start worrying about definitions etc in this instance - are you trying to impress or burden the unfortunate students with a greater, "interesting" range of meanings and quite remote (to their needs) "possibilities"? There is no need for the "authority" of the dictionary definitions here, in my opinion. All I am saying is that other native speaker teachers were bound to have a few (to the point if not curt) "suggestions" to "snap you out of it", and some can generally be a lot more direct than I usually am."
The sentence was written by a student. The desire to find out its acceptance came from a staff room discussion about the acceptance of such a sentence. Nobody is trying to impress or burden a student. We are just trying to establish whether anyone feels it acceptable, before we mark it. I mentioned your comments about "suggestions" to "snap you out of it" to my colleagues. We all had a good laugh about your arrogance and lack of talent.
You also wrote:
" "birthday" does not readily appear in the "I was born..." sentence (because the latter, as we all know, does not really concern a "birthday" at all)."
I take that to mean that you believe that "birthday" only refers to the anniversary and not the actual, one off day,of birth. But although you managed to dismiss my looking the word up in a dictionary, you should try it, and find out what the word means.
So in essence, we were trying to help a student by taking a written sentence in a composition and then discussing its acceptance and then seeking wider advice. Not something ( I guess only, here) that you seem to do a lot.
The same goes with the " On Mondays/On Monday" request of mine. The text gives it one way, and a student, and for that matter the staff room, looked at it a different way. As I could find no answer in the grammar books that were at hand, I posted here.
It used to be that one could come here and discuss nuances and seemingly obvious points presented under different contexts. It used to be a place of genuine discussion and academic interest. I guess I should only post the most obvious of problems here in future. I would not want other native speakers who can generally be a lot more direct than you usually are to try to snap me out of it. Unless, that is, they actually have anything worth saying.
And to quote you again:
"I don't really follow your "day of origin" tangent, or why you are now mentioning times of death or anniversaries of deaths etc, but there are things like "date of manufacture" or "country of origin" often stamped on products (such as tins of baked beans). I hope this helps"
It is kind and very honest of you to admit that you do not have the intelligence to follow a reasoned argument.
Thank you for your apology.
"However, when I see something that does not seem to be offering any concrete help (to students), I do feel that something perhaps needs to be said. I don't see why you need to consult dictionaries (including the "Mirriam" ) or start worrying about definitions etc in this instance - are you trying to impress or burden the unfortunate students with a greater, "interesting" range of meanings and quite remote (to their needs) "possibilities"? There is no need for the "authority" of the dictionary definitions here, in my opinion. All I am saying is that other native speaker teachers were bound to have a few (to the point if not curt) "suggestions" to "snap you out of it", and some can generally be a lot more direct than I usually am."
The sentence was written by a student. The desire to find out its acceptance came from a staff room discussion about the acceptance of such a sentence. Nobody is trying to impress or burden a student. We are just trying to establish whether anyone feels it acceptable, before we mark it. I mentioned your comments about "suggestions" to "snap you out of it" to my colleagues. We all had a good laugh about your arrogance and lack of talent.
You also wrote:
" "birthday" does not readily appear in the "I was born..." sentence (because the latter, as we all know, does not really concern a "birthday" at all)."
I take that to mean that you believe that "birthday" only refers to the anniversary and not the actual, one off day,of birth. But although you managed to dismiss my looking the word up in a dictionary, you should try it, and find out what the word means.
So in essence, we were trying to help a student by taking a written sentence in a composition and then discussing its acceptance and then seeking wider advice. Not something ( I guess only, here) that you seem to do a lot.
The same goes with the " On Mondays/On Monday" request of mine. The text gives it one way, and a student, and for that matter the staff room, looked at it a different way. As I could find no answer in the grammar books that were at hand, I posted here.
It used to be that one could come here and discuss nuances and seemingly obvious points presented under different contexts. It used to be a place of genuine discussion and academic interest. I guess I should only post the most obvious of problems here in future. I would not want other native speakers who can generally be a lot more direct than you usually are to try to snap me out of it. Unless, that is, they actually have anything worth saying.
And to quote you again:
"I don't really follow your "day of origin" tangent, or why you are now mentioning times of death or anniversaries of deaths etc, but there are things like "date of manufacture" or "country of origin" often stamped on products (such as tins of baked beans). I hope this helps"
It is kind and very honest of you to admit that you do not have the intelligence to follow a reasoned argument.
Thank you for your apology.
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Duncan Powrie
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Wow, John, it is a wonder you get anything done in your staffroom!
The fact that you posted on Dave's even after discussing things with your colleagues would imply that things weren't resolved to "everybody's" satisfaction. Did you "all" really have such a good laugh about evil old me, or were you twisting some arms? If there was genuine merriment and scorn genuinely all around, then I am glad I brightened up the day for you all!
I actually have quite a collection of dictionaries, and I usually swear by them ("**** these are heavy!"), but I'm resisting the urge to peek in them, because I think I know what the difference is between a birthday and a date of birth (of the one-off kind). A long-winded philosophical treatise on the nature of time and the longevity of canned foods could maybe set me straight, though...
I am not always sure what kind of things will generate genuinely interesting discussion on Dave's, but I suspect it is more those things that are actually very far from being obvious that end up being discussed the most (and you seem to be the only one on this thread, on the basis of the responses so far, who thinks the answer to your initial question was not obvious, or that your question would've lead into an interesting discussion).
BTW I think everybody (including even me) made some pertinent points on the "On Monday/On Mondays" thread.
I am glad you seem to have accepted my apology - perhaps it means I can now stop watching this thread?
The fact that you posted on Dave's even after discussing things with your colleagues would imply that things weren't resolved to "everybody's" satisfaction. Did you "all" really have such a good laugh about evil old me, or were you twisting some arms? If there was genuine merriment and scorn genuinely all around, then I am glad I brightened up the day for you all!
I actually have quite a collection of dictionaries, and I usually swear by them ("**** these are heavy!"), but I'm resisting the urge to peek in them, because I think I know what the difference is between a birthday and a date of birth (of the one-off kind). A long-winded philosophical treatise on the nature of time and the longevity of canned foods could maybe set me straight, though...
I am not always sure what kind of things will generate genuinely interesting discussion on Dave's, but I suspect it is more those things that are actually very far from being obvious that end up being discussed the most (and you seem to be the only one on this thread, on the basis of the responses so far, who thinks the answer to your initial question was not obvious, or that your question would've lead into an interesting discussion).
BTW I think everybody (including even me) made some pertinent points on the "On Monday/On Mondays" thread.
I am glad you seem to have accepted my apology - perhaps it means I can now stop watching this thread?
Last edited by Duncan Powrie on Fri Oct 01, 2004 11:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Stephen Jones
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Interesting that we might say Shakespeare's birthday was the 23rd April 1564
but would not say My birthday was the 25th March 1989
I tnink that the general consensus of opinon here is that the original sentence
"My birthday is on the the 25th March 1989"
is unlikely, and the same sentence with 'was'
"My birthdaywas on the the 25th March 1989"
would be wrong.
whilst My birthday is on the the 25th March
and
My birthday was on the the 25th March
would both be correct though in different contexts.
but would not say My birthday was the 25th March 1989
I tnink that the general consensus of opinon here is that the original sentence
"My birthday is on the the 25th March 1989"
is unlikely, and the same sentence with 'was'
"My birthdaywas on the the 25th March 1989"
would be wrong.
whilst My birthday is on the the 25th March
and
My birthday was on the the 25th March
would both be correct though in different contexts.
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Duncan Powrie
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Interesting indeed, Stephen, but wouldn't Shakespeare was born on a blustery spring day in 1564 in sunny Stratford-Upon-Scumthorpe, and soon proved his mettle playing lead guitar at the age of 3 in his father's local heavy metal gigs be the more usual way to go about things (in e.g. the liner notes to his Greatest Thrash Rock Love Ballads CD. My apologies - I am just thinking of how Keith Anderson writes in his notes for Naxos CDs)?Stephen Jones wrote:Interesting that we might say Shakespeare's birthday was the 23rd April 1564 but would not say My birthday was the 25th March 1989
Where's your example from? I suppose it would pass unnoticed in an informal lecture or tutorial, but I don't know if people would use "birthday" to mean "was born" in their writing. Did you make it up?
(I recall you often using examples concerning Shakespeare. Classy!).Anyway, made up or not, us ordinary folks can't compare to the Bard, so whilst your first example is acceptable, your second is, as you say, wrong.
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Stephen Jones
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Duncan Powrie
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