Life and death and birthdays

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revel
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Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 8:21 am

Speaking about Shakespeare

Post by revel » Fri Oct 01, 2004 5:53 pm

Hey all!

(Trying to divert our attention from the Birthday Spat.... :twisted: )

Have you all heard about the British Library's on-line publication of the Shakespeare cuartos? Wow, they've done some excellent work there, great quality fotographs of every page (even the end-sheets). It's amazing how beautiful books were back in the good old days. It's on the BL Webpage, don't have to leave an url, just look for it on any search engine, if you love Mr S, you'll be delighted to get a chance to see these things!

peace,
revel.

john martin
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Post by john martin » Wed Oct 06, 2004 12:01 pm

I posted the same question on the help forum. This is the reply:
Is it acceptable to say: "My birthday WAS the 21st of March
: 1985"

It is okay, but sounds a little strange. It is more usual to say "date of birth" when you say the day, month, AND YEAR when you were born.

My date of birth was the 21st of March 1985.
My birthday is the 21st of March.
I guess someone does accept that is acceptable. Maybe you could go over there and put her right!

Stephen Jones
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Post by Stephen Jones » Wed Oct 06, 2004 3:17 pm

Is it acceptable to say: "My birthday WAS the 21st of March
: 1985"

It is okay, but sounds a little strange. It is more usual to say "date of birth" when you say the day, month, AND YEAR when you were born.

My date of birth was the 21st of March 1985.
My birthday is the 21st of March.
This person appears to basically be saying the same as Duncan and I. That the sentence is unlikely to ever be spontaneously uttered by a native speaker. This is, I suspect, what she means when she says "it sounds a little strange".

We could go over to the forum and argue over what she means by "acceptable" (if she means it will be understood by a native speaker I would agree) but, apart from the fact that I have no idea what the helo forum you refer to is, I suspect that what you really want is simply someone to support your argument,

Perhaps for the many posters like you, who ostensibly post for advice, but are only prepared to accept contributions that agree with what you had in mind before you posted, we could have a speical type of question in which you state what you think and make it clear that anybody who disagrees with you is not welcome.

john martin
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Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2003 11:12 am

Post by john martin » Thu Oct 07, 2004 6:24 am

Stephen wrote:
Perhaps for the many posters like you, who ostensibly post for advice, but are only prepared to accept contributions that agree with what you had in mind before you posted, we could have a speical type of question in which you state what you think and make it clear that anybody who disagrees with you is not welcome
An interesting reply. I don't think that you will find anywhere in my post that I considered the sentence to be common usage. Indeed that is why I have spent some time trying to find out if it is acceptable. It would be a sad day indeed if only common usage were to be looked upon as acceptable. (Which does seem to be the tenor of the argument here)

It was after looking up the word and seeing that it appears to have a meaning that is not in common usage that I wondered if the sentence could be correct in theory.

Even more to the point, if Duncan had not posted in such a manner, I would not have even replied! Your point should actually be aimed at others.

I post a question here and it is derided as being so obvious that it isn't worthy of consideration. It was the people who responded that were unable to accept that it may be correct. You seem very confused about it indeed. It may be ok for Shakespeare, but not for yourself.

It strikes me that your comment should actually be reversed. Posters should only post questions that the self appointed experts on the forum find acceptable, and then should accept the advice without question. They must not disagree or seek further discussion, as they are questioning the "truth" of the experts. And when you question the truth of the experts, you become one of those people who only post to have their opinion confirmed.

This used to be a forum for real discussion, not for the flexing of egos and mutual back slapping about how smart you all are and how silly the OP is.

This is the edited part, I came across it after posting.

Stephen wrote:
Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 11:55 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Harzer

If you are only going to look for what reinforces with your previous prejudices than you have no need to waste your time reading books, or indeed to waste our time when it is clear that you do not have the least idea about what influences subject verb concord in English.
It seems you make a habit of it!!!!!!!!! It really seems obvious now that it is people that disagree with YOU that are not welcome!!!

Duncan Powrie
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Post by Duncan Powrie » Thu Oct 07, 2004 9:23 am

john martin wrote:An interesting reply. I don't think that you will find anywhere in my post that I considered the sentence to be common usage. Indeed that is why I have spent some time trying to find out if it is acceptable. It would be a sad day indeed if only common usage were to be looked upon as acceptable. (Which does seem to be the tenor of the argument here)

It was after looking up the word and seeing that it appears to have a meaning that is not in common usage that I wondered if the sentence could be correct in theory.
A decent teacher will always want to encourage creativity, and consider every utterance a student makes on its individual merits and message, but basic sentences such as these hardly seem to be the place to flex creative muscles. In such instances, perhaps students would be less interested in any teacher judgements about acceptability, and instead would find it perfectly acceptable to just concentrate on the relatively unconfusing facts that they could well need to know (or, heaven forbid, be taught)?

Incidentally, when I said Stephen's "Shakespeare" sentence was "acceptable", I meant that it could perhaps pass unnoticed in unplanned speech (if it did indeed actually occur much at all), but would seem much less likely as a considered choice in writing.

As fot the rest of your post, John, yes, Stephen can be prickly, but the thing is, he is usually so damn right about things, and always expresses it just so! I think every teacher, and probably quite a few students too, can easily follow, and often really appreciate what he says. 8)

john martin
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Post by john martin » Thu Oct 07, 2004 12:47 pm

Interestingly I have just attended a lecture on aspects of grammar at the university, and took the opportunity to ask the lecturer about the issue.
Her response: perfectly grammatically accurate.

Stephen Jones
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Post by Stephen Jones » Thu Oct 07, 2004 1:38 pm

Dear John

I didn't agree with the tone of Duncan's reply. Nevertheless I suspect he is correct when he says that the phrase is unlikely to be used by a native speaker.

What does 'acceptable' mean? If you are saying that "My birthday was on the 7th March 1989" would be used in the same context as "My date of birth is the 7th March 1989" then I would say no.

The fact that another poster on another forum may decide to call it acceptable does not pose any obligation to go over and argue the point. You've asked a question and I have replied to it politely and to the best of my ability.

And what does your lecturer mean by "perfectly grammatically accurate", and which phrase is she referring to. And which unversity and which lecturer?

There are many phrases that do not go against the formal constraints of English grammar but are nevertheless unlikely or even incorrect in most contexts. Take the phrase "I am me". Formally correct, and one does not have to stretch the imagination overmuch to imagine a situation where it is used, but if a student offered the phrase up I would be almost certain that he should be using the phrase "It's me".

Incidentally the French have a phrase for this kind of question "Ça se dit, mais ça ne se dit pas."

Anyway checking up the corpus we find that My birthday is July 5th, 1904. is one of thirty-nine examples that the online version of The British National Corpus gives fro 'birthday_is", and that there is no equivalent phrase amongst the forty odd given in answer to "birthday_was". This is in agreement with what I said before, which is that the phrase is unlikely but possible with 'is' but almost certainly not with 'was'.

Duncan Powrie
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Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2004 3:33 pm

Post by Duncan Powrie » Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:10 pm

Well, something that is grammatically sound doesn't need to make a whole lot of sense semantically, or ultimately be probable or even psychologically plausible (and a good job too, otherwise many generative grammarians would be out of job). So, without meaning to belittle your lecturer, why should what she "alone" says about grammaticality make much of a difference to what's been said here so far? You could get a hundred off-the-cuff- or on-the-run-back-to-the-faculty-office-meeting answers, but would that change the fact that these do not seem to be "acceptable" (for a wider range of reasons and issues than just grammar, or lexical semantics) to the English teachers who've replied here so far?

I am sympathetic to an individual student's "creativity", but I also feel a responsibility to present them with facts (when those facts are reasonably clear and can be presented relatively easily), not only to help them master English grammar, but also the lexicogrammar, in order that they can then be communicatively competent (have a range of tried-and-tested, appropriate functional utterances at hand); I certainly wouldn't, on the basis of some student's mistakes (interesting or otherwise), start imagining that the facts were or should be different (in an effort to correct e.g. the inequality amongst users of English, or the "prescriptivism" of certain "authorities" :wink: etc).

This could actually turn into quite an interesting debate, because it seems to me to be leading into a consideration of what we teachers think it is that students need (which could well be in direct contrast to what the students themselves want). I might post a quote from Susan Hunston on here soon (or perhaps the whole "mini-essay" I wrote in answer to a question once, to help contextualize Hunston's quote even more and tie it fully with what I am trying to say here). For now, I'll just close by saying that I personally always err towards attention, devotion and loyalty to the data (as far as pedagogically possible), similar perhaps to concert pianists, expected as they are to infuse a piece with personally unique variations in touch and rubato, yet without introducing blatant agogic distortions.

I see that Stephen replied just before I posted this, and has said more or less the same thing (except he has also helpfully included some corpus findings).
Last edited by Duncan Powrie on Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:26 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Duncan Powrie
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Post by Duncan Powrie » Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:24 pm

Here is the "mini-essay"! Feel free to skip down to the final paragraph (or even skip everything entirely! 8) ).

PLEASE GIVE A BRIEF SUMMARY OF WHAT YOU CONSIDER TO BE THE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE IN LANGUAGE TEACHING.

Actually, the only thing that I feel I’d want to write about (and am in any position to) is perhaps not so much an “issue”, as a gust of (if not exactly fresh, then at least reinvigorating) air flowing through the sometimes stale world of ELT; I am talking, “of course”, of the enormous contributions that computerised corpora have made to the description of language.

I don’t mean to imply that teaching (or learning!) is not a complex business, or that many of the decisions that need to be taken every day are not made easier by adopting an established metalanguage (i.e. an underlying belief system that, given the current state of “theoretical” linguistics, is not possible to prove or disprove the value of - so why not use it in the meantime?); it is just that a lot of the theories and “debate” that has informed ELT up to now has not been of such immediate and obvious practical value as, say, what the COBUILD project has achieved (“A COBUILD Dictionary in the hand is worth two grammar books on the resources shelf” – Confucius :o). I sincerely believe, no, KNOW from experience that real data can clarify points of grammar (and often reveals new or clearer ones) in the teacher’s mind at least, and suggest more natural and varied ways to structure learning tasks and activities than previous (necessarily partial) descriptions could, and than almost a priori methodology still tries to do; both grammar and methodology cannot compensate for, or replace (a lack of) real knowledge (I use “knowledge” to refer not only to what a teacher should know, but also to what students might need to learn).

That being said, I am not sure that corpus data should “drive” (i.e. be the raw material for) language learning (some people have suggested bringing largely unedited, KWIC/concordance lines into classes, so that students can “notice” and “hypothesise” about possible meanings) - I think it is more the teacher’s job to do most of the analysis, and find ways (i.e. design language-based, communicative activities or tasks) to somehow relay and make “comprehensible” for learners any major conclusions that can be drawn from the data (this will obviously be especially necessary to do if the learners are not willing to be as independent as it is sometimes assumed they need or want to be. Sometimes, I suspect the best way to meet learner needs [expectations?] might be by actually teaching something – by assuming the roles of expert/native speaker, authority and resource - or at least suggesting what is to be “learnt” after tasks have been attempted and/or completed). It all sounds like a lot of work for the teacher, but it is what I ideally would try to do myself; and who minds hard work if it is rewarding (and hopefully aids learning)?! I suppose what I am ultimately saying is that I have an issue with issues, at least of the kind often presented in initial teacher training – you know, those things that are easy and pat “answers” to the trainers’ rhetoric, rather than balanced and sophisticated wider-ranging accounts.

I therefore believe that researching not just grammar, but now also the wider lexicogrammar is something that all teachers should do if they have the time, because the process will suggest valuable new areas and ideas for learning, and help revitalise one’s teaching too; I take what I would call a “corpus-inspired” approach to supplementing existing practice (Michael McCarthy, quoting Tognini-Bonelli in his Spoken Language and Applied Linguistics [Cambridge University Press: Cambridge 1998. 22-23] would call it a “corpus-driven” approach, but this to me has the negative connotations one might associate with “data-driven” learning, above).

(I could have perhaps said something about the objections that have been raised about corpora and lexical approaches: that they seem to be implying only native-speaker norms of idiomatic speech are acceptable, and that constraining the scope of utterances in this way will stifle creativity, lead almost to cliché, denies the successes and value of “slot-fill” structure-plus-word approaches, and might not develop “competence” as well as these other approaches; and that they help perpetuate the hegemony of the English-speaking nations. The facts are, however, that grammar is only one of the components of communicative competence – appropriateness is important in production - and that in reception, natural language is probably better in the long run for “acquisition” [or “learning”, if you prefer a more cognitive and/or explicit approach], that all being well should in turn feed into and aid production; that including non-native norms into corpora will ironically probably increase, not decrease the size and complexity of the learning load, if the universals of English usage will be as difficult to collate, identify and [equally] describe to the satisfaction of all concerned as realists would have us believe [besides which, there is nothing stopping the aggrieved from compiling their own “[inter]nationalistic” corpora if they feel present ones are inadequate. Surely they are a good start, to give them due credit?]; and finally that, as Hunston points out, learners of, in comparison, say Japanese “would be less disconcerted by having access to a corpus of language produced by native speakers [of Japanese]”*, despite the fact that Japan is also a powerful country with the potential to dominate. If other languages can be learnt in spite of such “issues”, can’t English also be, for whatever value it might have as “just” a language, a product of a culture, even if that culture has created inequitable institutions of world order? It is very hard to divorce language totally from culture, and not all students would want this to be the case; even scientists need their metaphors! Applied linguists trying to better describe English are hardly working on an atomic bomb, and their pleas that they are not responsible for any resulting destruction are not so self-serving when one considers the constructive uses to which English [and all languages] can actually be put).

* Hunston, S. Corpora in Applied Linguistics. Cambridge University Press: Cambridge 2002. 194.

john martin
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Post by john martin » Fri Oct 08, 2004 12:34 am

Thanks for the interesting replies. I have been trying to access the BNC, but with no success. If anyone get let me in on the secret that would be appreciated.

I agree in most part with what has been said. I would not encourage anyone to use "the" sentence. And as stated it has not turned up on the BNC search.

I guess my whole point is this: even though the sentence is not in common usage, does that make it in essence incorrect to use it. As far as I am concerned, it was 100 percent succesful in conveying its meaning, and appears to be grammaticaly correct. (As mentioned, corpus driven teaching has advantages and disadvantages).

In the end, by the way, I decided to not to mark it wrong, but gave the much more common usages and said that they should be used instead. But I think there is a danger in just marking these things wrong when what we really mean is that they do not follow convention.

Stephen Jones
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Post by Stephen Jones » Fri Oct 08, 2004 6:14 am

Dear John

From what I can remember you said the student produced the sentence
My birthday is on ...1989 and a colleague wrongly suggested that the correct sentence should have been My birthday was on.....1989"

Your colleague is in fact advocating changing an unusual sentence to an even more unusual one, and his advice should be ignored. Whether you decide to correct the student's original sentence is a pedagogical decision and entirely up to you - I would probably told him to rephrase it as I was born on...., but I can see myself letting it pass.

The problem we are facing is that on occasion it is difficult to say whether a particular lexical use is wrong. Take this example, where my failure to notice the mistake was instrumental in my losing a job.
We sat outside surrounded by beautiful country
This is Spanglish of course, and the correct English is surrounded by beeautiful countryside yet we say He's living in the country and I'm checking out the country around Leicester.

In the oarticular job I was referring to, whcih was a Proficency English class in Barcelona, I found myself perpetually going to the CoBuild to check out if something was Spanglish or not. In nearly every case I found the phrase was.

john martin
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Post by john martin » Fri Oct 08, 2004 7:02 am

How do I access the BNC or Cobuild. I have been trying but without any luck. Any help here?

LarryLatham
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Post by LarryLatham » Fri Oct 08, 2004 8:14 am

COBUILD can be found here:

http://titania.cobuild.collins.co.uk/

A good basic understanding of the Present Simple Tense/Past Simple Tense distinction would be helpful to the original part of the discussion (arguement?) here. It is clear that some have it confused with present time and past time.

Larry Latham

john martin
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Post by john martin » Fri Oct 08, 2004 10:12 am

Thanks for the link Larry, and would you like to expand on your comments. I would be very interested to hear them.
Thanks in advance.

john martin
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Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2003 11:12 am

Post by john martin » Fri Oct 08, 2004 10:40 am

"So, without meaning to belittle your lecturer, why should what she "alone" says about grammaticality make much of a difference to what's been said here so far? You could get a hundred off-the-cuff- or on-the-run-back-to-the-faculty-office-meeting answers, but would that change the fact that these do not seem to be "acceptable" (for a wider range of reasons and issues than just grammar, or lexical semantics) to the English teachers who've replied here so far? "

There you guys go again! It is people that disagree with YOU that are suspected of inaccuracy and inadequate thought. I posed the question in a section where we were asked to come up with grammar "queries" that we had come across recently. So it was given ample consideration.

If you notice very carefully here, I have until my last couple of posts , not disagreed/agreed with any opinion of the sentence. And as stated before, I would probably not have replied, other than with a polite thank you, but for the tone of the posts.

And I still think you are missing the whole point. If we take the definition of birthday to be the "day of origin" as is one of the definitions in all of the dictionaries I have checked, can we use the sentence "My birthday was..."
"MY date of origin was ....". Direct substitution makes it seem possible.
All responses, provided they are not not aimed at belittling anyone of aggrandising the poster, gratefully received.

Please share your further opinions with us Larry, and the link doesn't seem to work. (I checked with google and it gave me the same link!!)
Last edited by john martin on Fri Oct 08, 2004 12:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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