What do people say? Or do they say in differentet contexts?
My experience is that Americans usually say I like + infinitive when talking about hobbies etc
I like watching TV / to watch TV??
Moderators: Dimitris, maneki neko2, Lorikeet, Enrico Palazzo, superpeach, cecil2, Mr. Kalgukshi2
Both
Good morning.
Have you guys and gals heard about the guy in the US who has legally changed his name to "They"? He claims it is to put a little fun in his life, he plans on taking responsibility for being the "they" in all of those sentences we say like "they won't let me do it!" or "they say that the rain in Spain lies mainly on the plain." He seemed happy with the change in the interview I heard (check out NPR's "All Things Considered", don't remember what day it aired but their archives are easily browsed and listened to.)
Being just one of the thousands of millions of "people" who speak, I myself use either the infinitive or the gerund, I suppose whichever pops out of my mouth at the time, or even more, whichever serves the rhythm and poetry of my speaking. There might be a deep, binding psycological reason for one over the other in any particular situation, but when "saying" it, I don't give much thought to it. As far as I know, both are "correct" or "accepted." But then, this is one of those threads that can go on and on on a minimal pair....
peace,
revel.
Have you guys and gals heard about the guy in the US who has legally changed his name to "They"? He claims it is to put a little fun in his life, he plans on taking responsibility for being the "they" in all of those sentences we say like "they won't let me do it!" or "they say that the rain in Spain lies mainly on the plain." He seemed happy with the change in the interview I heard (check out NPR's "All Things Considered", don't remember what day it aired but their archives are easily browsed and listened to.)
Being just one of the thousands of millions of "people" who speak, I myself use either the infinitive or the gerund, I suppose whichever pops out of my mouth at the time, or even more, whichever serves the rhythm and poetry of my speaking. There might be a deep, binding psycological reason for one over the other in any particular situation, but when "saying" it, I don't give much thought to it. As far as I know, both are "correct" or "accepted." But then, this is one of those threads that can go on and on on a minimal pair....
peace,
revel.
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john martin
- Posts: 43
- Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2003 11:12 am
The difference in meaning is quite subtle and doesn't come out in a lot of contexts. One example where it does show is one I've quoted on another thread:
A disabled friend tells you she's going to see the Bolshoi Ballet. What do you say:
1) So you like to dance?
2) So you like dancing?
Obviously not (1) because LIKE + to + Base Form is when you do the activity yourself. LIKE + BF-ing refers to the activity in general, which you may or may not do yourself.
A disabled friend tells you she's going to see the Bolshoi Ballet. What do you say:
1) So you like to dance?
2) So you like dancing?
Obviously not (1) because LIKE + to + Base Form is when you do the activity yourself. LIKE + BF-ing refers to the activity in general, which you may or may not do yourself.
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Duncan Powrie
- Posts: 525
- Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2004 3:33 pm
I was gonna throw in my tupenny's worth, but you guys have beaten me to it!
Lolwhites's context is a good one (have you used it before, lol? It's familiar...).
I am always struck by how the school textbooks they use here in Japan especially provide no real guidance - they just trot out "alternative" forms with little respect for meaning/use=function:
Unit 1) Birds fly/I laugh/You cry/They snore/John Sinclair goes apesh*t
2) I like bananas/He plays the guitar/Bonzo chases cats
4) I like to play soccer
6) I like playing soccer
I think that was the kind of order in which they presented the items. Perhaps the last two items were the other way around? Either way, the very obvious I PLAY SOCCER vs. I DON'T LIKE/PLAY SOCCER (?I don't like [to play/playing] soccer) are totally missing, and I am not sure if the easiest things are at all obvious to the kind of (unmotivated, rote-memorization) learners that these books are intended for.
It also never seems to occur to anyone to contrast the two forms in one sentence:
I like watching rugby, but I don't play it - it's far too dangerous!
Maybe that is too subtle, but it is something I'm sure I've said or at least heard on occassion.
As a parting shot, why not say what you actually like (to watch/watching): I like sitcoms/wildlife documentaries/sports etc (in the context of "What do you like to watch on TV?"). I mean, everyone likes watching/to watch TV, don't they?
Lolwhites's context is a good one (have you used it before, lol? It's familiar...).
I am always struck by how the school textbooks they use here in Japan especially provide no real guidance - they just trot out "alternative" forms with little respect for meaning/use=function:
Unit 1) Birds fly/I laugh/You cry/They snore/John Sinclair goes apesh*t
2) I like bananas/He plays the guitar/Bonzo chases cats
4) I like to play soccer
6) I like playing soccer
I think that was the kind of order in which they presented the items. Perhaps the last two items were the other way around? Either way, the very obvious I PLAY SOCCER vs. I DON'T LIKE/PLAY SOCCER (?I don't like [to play/playing] soccer) are totally missing, and I am not sure if the easiest things are at all obvious to the kind of (unmotivated, rote-memorization) learners that these books are intended for.
It also never seems to occur to anyone to contrast the two forms in one sentence:
I like watching rugby, but I don't play it - it's far too dangerous!
Maybe that is too subtle, but it is something I'm sure I've said or at least heard on occassion.
As a parting shot, why not say what you actually like (to watch/watching): I like sitcoms/wildlife documentaries/sports etc (in the context of "What do you like to watch on TV?"). I mean, everyone likes watching/to watch TV, don't they?
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Duncan Powrie
- Posts: 525
- Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2004 3:33 pm
Hmm I just realized that, clear as your example is, lol, it is a 1 > 2 structure (V + to-infinitive/gerund) where there is a clear difference in meaning (at least, as far as disabled wouldn't-be dancers go).
However, when the structure is of a 1 > 2 > 3 (V + to-infinitive/gerund + O?) kind, there seems to be much less discernible difference in meaning - there is an extra item to read, and perhaps the meaning is therefore more "spread out", diffused? (I guess we could treat the "to watch/watching TV" as more or less a fused unit meaning-wise, though).
So, to return to the original question, is "I like to watch TV" saying the same thing as "I like watching TV" (at least, in these decontextualized states, without extra co-text)? I suspect it is, unhelpful though that might sound to students, always more consciously aware of learning and making choices as they are than native speakers (revel!).
Hmm my rugby sentence is not now as illuminating as I had thought. All I might be able to do is help the student "zero in" on the central proposition(s):
I like to watch/watching rugby, but I don't play it - it's...!
I watch rugby, but I don't play it's...!
(I just watch) I don't play rugby - it's...!
However, when the structure is of a 1 > 2 > 3 (V + to-infinitive/gerund + O?) kind, there seems to be much less discernible difference in meaning - there is an extra item to read, and perhaps the meaning is therefore more "spread out", diffused? (I guess we could treat the "to watch/watching TV" as more or less a fused unit meaning-wise, though).
So, to return to the original question, is "I like to watch TV" saying the same thing as "I like watching TV" (at least, in these decontextualized states, without extra co-text)? I suspect it is, unhelpful though that might sound to students, always more consciously aware of learning and making choices as they are than native speakers (revel!).
Hmm my rugby sentence is not now as illuminating as I had thought. All I might be able to do is help the student "zero in" on the central proposition(s):
I like to watch/watching rugby, but I don't play it - it's...!
I watch rugby, but I don't play it's...!
(I just watch) I don't play rugby - it's...!
My point is that there is a subtle difference between LIKE + to + BF and LIKE +BF-ing, but it won't show up in all contexts. My assertion is that LIKE + to is for when one does the activity oneself, while in LIKE + BF-ing the -ing form is behaving like a noun which refers to the activity in general and so it's potentially ambiguous, hence it doesn't show up in the to watch/watching TV example but not in the to dance/dancing example. After all, is it possible to like the activity of watching TV while being unable to do it yourself? Possibly, but it sounds a bit contorted and I can't think of a situation or context where it would make sense.
It's not just the meaning of the structure that comes into play, but the meaning of the verb and the situation. Or, as a real estate dealer with a degree in Applied Linguistics would say, "Context, context, context".
It's not just the meaning of the structure that comes into play, but the meaning of the verb and the situation. Or, as a real estate dealer with a degree in Applied Linguistics would say, "Context, context, context".
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Duncan Powrie
- Posts: 525
- Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2004 3:33 pm
Hmm, so it's basically about ability? Okay, gotcha!
Excuse the dark, twisted, sick imagination at work here: The nurses caring for a brain-dead vegetable like to leave the TV on in his room, obviously more for their own comfort than his (it helps break the silence while they clean his room etc). Anyway, a new doctor, aware of the patient's case history and condition but not his actual environment/room (this is his first visit), notices the TV is on and says to the nurse: "So, he likes to watch/watching TV, huh?"
Hmm, again, no difference in meaning between forms, as far as I can see. The TV rather than the activity is what looms largest?
Excuse the dark, twisted, sick imagination at work here: The nurses caring for a brain-dead vegetable like to leave the TV on in his room, obviously more for their own comfort than his (it helps break the silence while they clean his room etc). Anyway, a new doctor, aware of the patient's case history and condition but not his actual environment/room (this is his first visit), notices the TV is on and says to the nurse: "So, he likes to watch/watching TV, huh?"
Hmm, again, no difference in meaning between forms, as far as I can see. The TV rather than the activity is what looms largest?
I'm probably not explaining myself very well here, but it's not about ability.
I like to dance/to swim/to run... = the speaker carries out the action.
I like dancing/swimming/running... is ambiguous; we don't know whether the speaker means doing the action himself or not. It's the same ambiguity you get in I like football; it could mean playing or watching. The same for I like sex but I won't go into that...
The difference is only highlighted with certain verbs. Watch isn't one of them as watching TV isn't a spectator sport.
Is that any clearer?
I like to dance/to swim/to run... = the speaker carries out the action.
I like dancing/swimming/running... is ambiguous; we don't know whether the speaker means doing the action himself or not. It's the same ambiguity you get in I like football; it could mean playing or watching. The same for I like sex but I won't go into that...
The difference is only highlighted with certain verbs. Watch isn't one of them as watching TV isn't a spectator sport.
Is that any clearer?
Thanks! -
JuanTwoThree
- Posts: 947
- Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 11:30 am
- Location: Spain
I don't disagree when I say that it seems pretty clear cut when somebody else is doing it or you are. You hear in your mind's eye (ouch) something like "them" or "it when you are".
To your friend who goes to the ballet: Do you like( them) dancing?
To your dancer friend: "Do you like (it when you are) dancing?
You could say to your disabled friend "Do/Did you like the dancing?". We say "I like the cycling on TV" or come home from a party and say "I loved the dancing" .
The distance of someone else doing it seems even more of a gerund. It's not the same in "Do you like dancing = When you are dancing are you having a good time?". You could ask a ballet-dancer "Do you like your dancing" to get the objectivity and be somehow "more" gerundial and less shrunken Present Continuous.
(BTW somewhere there is a wonderful series of sentences which begins "The artist is painting his daughter" and finishes "The painting is in the Louvre" I don't remember much but it's such a seamless glide from Continuous through Gerund to Noun that it's hard to say where the joins are. It would keep us occupied for months)
When the person is doing it themself (I know) the British English difference seems to focus on a painful duty or a genuine pleasure, as john martin has said.
(Said by a censor) I like to watch fifty porn films before breakfast.
I like to arrive at the airport in plenty of time.
I like to shave in the mornings much as I don't like shaving.
Maybe when there is a general agreement that the activity is a pleasure there's not much difference, as in "to watch/watching TV" . Can the same be said when the activity is a pain?
How does Am Eng go about expressing the element of distaste in the three examples above because for me there's a definite Whoopee! after these -ings:
(Said by a censor) I like watching fifty porn films per day.
I like arriving at the airport in plenty of time.
I don't see how "like" can be used twice, in Am Eng, in the shaving example if like +...ing and like+ to..... have no subtle difference between them.
Happy Bridge!
To your friend who goes to the ballet: Do you like( them) dancing?
To your dancer friend: "Do you like (it when you are) dancing?
You could say to your disabled friend "Do/Did you like the dancing?". We say "I like the cycling on TV" or come home from a party and say "I loved the dancing" .
The distance of someone else doing it seems even more of a gerund. It's not the same in "Do you like dancing = When you are dancing are you having a good time?". You could ask a ballet-dancer "Do you like your dancing" to get the objectivity and be somehow "more" gerundial and less shrunken Present Continuous.
(BTW somewhere there is a wonderful series of sentences which begins "The artist is painting his daughter" and finishes "The painting is in the Louvre" I don't remember much but it's such a seamless glide from Continuous through Gerund to Noun that it's hard to say where the joins are. It would keep us occupied for months)
When the person is doing it themself (I know) the British English difference seems to focus on a painful duty or a genuine pleasure, as john martin has said.
(Said by a censor) I like to watch fifty porn films before breakfast.
I like to arrive at the airport in plenty of time.
I like to shave in the mornings much as I don't like shaving.
Maybe when there is a general agreement that the activity is a pleasure there's not much difference, as in "to watch/watching TV" . Can the same be said when the activity is a pain?
How does Am Eng go about expressing the element of distaste in the three examples above because for me there's a definite Whoopee! after these -ings:
(Said by a censor) I like watching fifty porn films per day.
I like arriving at the airport in plenty of time.
I don't see how "like" can be used twice, in Am Eng, in the shaving example if like +...ing and like+ to..... have no subtle difference between them.
Happy Bridge!
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Duncan Powrie
- Posts: 525
- Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2004 3:33 pm
Hmm JTT your "shaved bits" 
seem to be a bit contradictory. They'd make more sense if they went something like this: I don't like/want/need to (shave/shaving), but I HAVE to (shave) every morning."
That is, if Brits (of whom I am one
) see things as duties vs. pleasures, then why use "like to..." at all (why not just say "have to...", or make a "simple (present) statement")?
I must admit that I really don't understand (that is, "feel" at all keenly) the dichtomies that surround talk of "obligation", even though I am, as I say, a Brit. Same thing with that "Would you like some vs. any cake?" palaver!
seem to be a bit contradictory. They'd make more sense if they went something like this: I don't like/want/need to (shave/shaving), but I HAVE to (shave) every morning."That is, if Brits (of whom I am one
) see things as duties vs. pleasures, then why use "like to..." at all (why not just say "have to...", or make a "simple (present) statement")?I must admit that I really don't understand (that is, "feel" at all keenly) the dichtomies that surround talk of "obligation", even though I am, as I say, a Brit. Same thing with that "Would you like some vs. any cake?" palaver!
Juan, I'm not so sure about the idea that another person doing something makes it more likely to be a gerund. After all, a misogynist could quite correctly say I like my wife to wear a French maid's outfit and have dinner ready when I come home from work.
Your examples of I like to watch/arrive/shave/.. could be rewritten with the -ing forms with little or no change in meaning (unless shaving becomes an Olympic sport...)
Your examples of I like to watch/arrive/shave/.. could be rewritten with the -ing forms with little or no change in meaning (unless shaving becomes an Olympic sport...)
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JuanTwoThree
- Posts: 947
- Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 11:30 am
- Location: Spain
Complete retraction:
Not more likely to be a gerund but more of a gerund. It makes even less sense now than it did when I wrote it. What I meant was that of "I like dancing" and "I like my dancing" and "I like you/your/somebody dancing" the first is "less" of a gerund, though I know it is one, right it's bollix. I'll stop.
OK, "I like getting to the airport early" could also mean "It seems like a good plan but I don't exactly get much pleasure out of it" .
Is it just a portmanteau word and we hope that we're understood? With lots of intonation. And chorus of "In the context".
I like (prefer) to shave in the mornings though I don't like (enjoy) shaving at any time. If you switch around the to's and ing's you get much the same result, I fear.
Back to the drawing board
Not more likely to be a gerund but more of a gerund. It makes even less sense now than it did when I wrote it. What I meant was that of "I like dancing" and "I like my dancing" and "I like you/your/somebody dancing" the first is "less" of a gerund, though I know it is one, right it's bollix. I'll stop.
OK, "I like getting to the airport early" could also mean "It seems like a good plan but I don't exactly get much pleasure out of it" .
Is it just a portmanteau word and we hope that we're understood? With lots of intonation. And chorus of "In the context".
I like (prefer) to shave in the mornings though I don't like (enjoy) shaving at any time. If you switch around the to's and ing's you get much the same result, I fear.
Back to the drawing board