Page 1 of 3
What is the purpose of the Present Perfect?
Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 1:25 pm
by Xui
In another forum, I maintained that any Present Perfect action has, though unmentioned, actually a definite time frame, that is, the time period in which the action happens and finishes.
A reader argued, "I have seen a white bird", where is the time frame?
I replied, "You saw a white bird some time ago". The time frame entails you say it in Simple Past, though. However, adding the time information cannot change the action anything. It is not reasonable that once we tell the time frame, the case is instantly remote.
For another example, I can't remember exactly when Edison invented light bulb, but I still can provide a so-called definite past time that demands Simple Past: "Many years ago, Edison invented light bulb."
I explained further that nothing happens without a time. We are not unable to pick up any definite past time about something. If we use Present Perfect to say it, it doesn't mean we cannot mention any definite past time at all. We just use Present Perfect to serve our purpose.
But what is the purpose?
Your opinion is welcome.
Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 6:59 pm
by Duncan Powrie
"I've seen a white bird". Hmm, not the strongest example I've ever seen. Admittedly, I do want to ask "Where?! When, exactly? Just a minute ago? 2 minutes ago? Which direction did it fly off in? How far can it have flown away by now? Just think, it might even be the legendary Lost White Bird I've been after for oh so many years, for which there is a $1,000,000 reward going!!". This here is obviously tricky stuff.
"I've probably seen over 3,000 hardcore Hungarian porno flicks". I could tell you exactly when I saw each one (and give you all the "ins and outs" of the "plots"), but we'd be here for a long time, and my memory isn't so good with dates...I always remember an ass, though! This one here seems a bit easier to grasp, not so slippery...
Of course, you may object that here, we are talking about 3,000 seperate occassions, counted as a single, aggregate experience - can a SINGLE event be treated similarly i.e. be expressed with the same linguistic resources, and convey similar meaning?
Yes, it can (the speaker is under no obligation to mention "when", unless the discourse calls, or the other discourse participants call, for that information), and once you can accept that the experiential aspect of Present Perfect is actually useful, you might be in a better position to start appreciating its other aspects.
EXPERIENCE THE EXPERIENTIAL!
$29.95 per pack. ORDER NOW!!!
Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 11:08 am
by Stephen Jones
A reader argued, "I have seen a white bird", where is the time frame?
There isn't a time frame, apart from sometime before the present. We are using the present perfect precisely because the time frame here is much less important than the experience per se.
Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:30 pm
by Xui
Stephen Jones wrote:A reader argued, "I have seen a white bird", where is the time frame?
There isn't a time frame, apart from sometime before the present. We are using the present perfect precisely because the time frame here is much less important than the experience per se.
===========
There is a time frame!! And yet it is unmentioned: "some time ago". If it is not a time frame that entails Simple Past, then what it is? Perhaps you don't call it time frame, but what I mean is, I can use Simple Past anytime if I will, by adding "some time ago". I use Present Perfect because it serves my purpose.
Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 2:12 pm
by Xui
"Some time ago" is a only a response to anyone's Present Perfect if he claims he doesn't know about the time. As for the writer himself, one can usually know approximately the time, and use "some days/ months/ years/ decades ago" to refer to the case and has to use Simple Past to say it. Whatever you want to call these time expressions, it is not a problem. I just know they are grouped under definite past time adverbials that demands Simple Past. One cannot use Present Perfect with these time adverbials, as far as I understood.
Using Simple Past or not is strictly according to our choice. One can easily provide a definite past time to anything. The reason we use Present Perfect isn't because we don't know of the so-called definite past time of the happening. It is not a reason at all.
Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 3:13 pm
by Attila
It needs a link with the present, surely.
The most common uses, 'We've won!', 'Now you've done it!', 'I haven't been to the bank yet', 'I haven't seen him' have the present meanings: We're very good, You're in trouble, I need to go to the bank, I don't know where he is.
The example, on this thread, of I have seen a white bird would probably elicit the response So ****ing what!
Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 3:34 pm
by Xui
Attila wrote:It needs a link with the present, surely.
The most common uses, 'We've won!', 'Now you've done it!', 'I haven't been to the bank yet', 'I haven't seen him' have the present meanings: We're very good, You're in trouble, I need to go to the bank, I don't know where he is.
The example, on this thread, of I have seen a white bird would probably elicit the response So ****ing what!
How many times when we see someone has achieved something he instantly shouted, "I did it!!".
I hardly say it is "We've won", or "We won", when I hear it.
Are all your examples in Present Perfect cannot be said in Simple Past? If so, say in front of us.
As for some kind of wording containing some stars, you can hardly understand what it is. When you understand it, you hope you haven't. I wish I had not seen it at all. It degrades the forum.
Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 5:47 pm
by Attila
Quote:
"Are all your examples in Present Perfect cannot be said in Simple Past? If so, say in front of us."
Of course they cannot be said in simple past without changing the meaning - why do I have to tell you this?
Quote:
As for some kind of wording containing some stars, you can hardly understand what it is. When you understand it, you hope you haven't. I wish I had not seen it at all. It degrades the forum.
Stop your snivelling, you over-sensitive little infant.
Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 5:56 pm
by Duncan Powrie
I hereby pass the title of Protector of the Cafe to Attila!
Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 7:08 pm
by Xui
Duncan Powrie wrote:I hereby pass the title of Protector of the Cafe to Attila!
So this is why there is a language with stars!!
Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 7:11 pm
by Xui
Attila wrote:Quote:
"Are all your examples in Present Perfect cannot be said in Simple Past? If so, say in front of us."
Of course they cannot be said in simple past without changing the meaning - why do I have to tell you this?
Quote:
As for some kind of wording containing some stars, you can hardly understand what it is. When you understand it, you hope you haven't. I wish I had not seen it at all. It degrades the forum.
Stop your snivelling, you over-sensitive little infant.
So you see there is the difference!!
Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 7:13 pm
by Duncan Powrie
Xui wrote:Duncan Powrie wrote:
I hereby pass the title of Protector of the Cafe to Attila!
So this is why there is a language with stars!!
Yes, Shun, it is something to do with a secret order, full of secret rituals, handshakes, nods and winks, all of which will remain a mystery to uninitiated outsiders.
Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 7:18 pm
by Xui
Duncan Powrie wrote:Yes, Shun, it is something to do with a secret order, full of secret rituals, handshakes, nods and winks, all of which will remain a mystery to uninitiated outsiders.
I wonder if you are the real Moderator of Applied Linguistics, so you can permit the codes with stars, the filthy codes 
Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 7:36 pm
by Duncan Powrie
Er, no, Shun, aka "you over-sensitive little infant", I'm obviously not a moderator.
Although Moderator and Protector of the Cafe should ideally perhaps be the same thing/role, they are not (and luckily so for us foulmouths); being Protector of the Cafe is much more fun!
Actually, all who have been initiated (BTW there's automatic initiation and a 20% reduction on stuffed toy replicas of Dave, so long as your name isn't Shun or Xui or Shooey or whatever) can be a protector of the cafe, but there can only ever really be one Grand Protector (**New title alert**), and now that is a Mr Atilla.
All complaints should be sent, attached to a brick, to the following address:
Atilla's window
Trailer Z
The wrong part of town
Godforsaken
Foulmouth County
A country that don't extradite
Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 7:53 pm
by Duncan Powrie
BTW what have you got against stars, Shun? They are quiet, peaceful. And they go "twinkle twinkle" in the night sky, and make you feel all small and insignificant in the greater, ordered-yet-chaotic scheme of things. You been seeing stars lately?