Teacher Discussion Forums

When speakers say "These local variations are dialects of English.", what do they mean by "English"? Do they mean dialects of the standard form, or of something larger, more abstract?

If the former is meant, did the expression "dialects of English" exist before the standard form was born?

Again, if so, what, in that pre-standard period, was the concept behind the word "English"?

The standard form is a dialect of English, more of a social dialect than a regional dialect but still a dialect, or at the very least based on one.

In Arabic you could argue that Modern Standard Arabic is independent of the different regional varieties of Arabic, and that no one speaks it as their native dialect, but British Englsh has a large number of speakers who speak Standard English as their native dialect, as well as others who are diglossic.

Stephen Jones wrote:The standard form is a dialect of English, more of a social dialect than a regional dialect but still a dialect, or at the very least based on one.

In Arabic you could argue that Modern Standard Arabic is independent of the different regional varieties of Arabic, and that no one speaks it as their native dialect, but British Englsh has a large number of speakers who speak Standard English as their native dialect, as well as others who are diglossic.

I agree.

Thanks.

Can we distinguish between Standard English, BBC English, RP and The Queen's English? In the latter case I don't mean "Wheya ah iu frorm?"

Received Pronunciation refers to pronunciation only.

The other three are all names for the same thing.

Thek yiu vair mach.

The queen speaks very oddly indeed, as if she is highly constipated. BBC English has changed immensely in 50 years, and the BBC now employs many presenters with mild regional accents. Standard English includes British and Americanisms, so nobody speaks the international version.

woodcutter wrote:Standard English includes British and Americanisms, so nobody speaks the international version.

My eyes always *beep* up when "International English" is mentioned. People say there is no such thing, because nobody speaks all the varieties of which "it" is comprized, but speaking is different from recognizing and understanding what others have said (presuming they aren't using very regional colloquialisms, idioms, slang etc).

Duncan Powrie wrote:My eyes always *beep* up when "International English" is mentioned.

I just thought of a new diversion for learners on Dave's: they can try to guess what "naughty" word goes in the above blank. Not all dictionaries are of much help (I couldn't find the necessary cross reference at "ear" in half of the dictionaries that I consulted), so this should be THE test of how "good" a learner's English really is.

****! Long day at the "office" today. I've just noticed that I typed "eyes" originally - that should be EARS, all you hopeful learners lining up to take the F-EL ("F-all", as in "TOEFL") test.

The queen speaks very oddly indeed, as if she is highly constipated

Dear Woocutter, are you sure you're not thinking of the Spanish "constipado" meaning having a stuffy nose or a cold.

Never having suffered from constipation, I don't know how it affects the voxal chords, but I have many friend who suffer from it, or appear to from the time they take in the loo, and I have not noticed any common feature in their accents, either before or after.

I have found Stephen Jones out! Examine-

http://www.herebedragons.co.uk/jones/ for details.

Every single person in England is influenced by their class in the way that they speak. Those at the top of the food chain are not the most standard. Especially the queen, with her "royal we". Those in the middle will have some kind of interference, however slight, from local dialects.

As to constipation, I am merely speculating, and I do not have as many constipated friends as Stephen has, so I must defer to his opinion.

I may have mentioned before that when I started my Linguistics degree I was told everyone spoke a dialect. It would therefore be wrong to think of varieties of English as "offshoots" of a "standard", because in fact what happened was that one "variety" was adopted as the "standard" (this happened to be the variety spoken by those of a certain class in the richest, most powerful geographical region at the time. Dialects such as Geordie, Brum, West Country etc already existed in some form.

I was also told that RP Pronunciation/BBC English is an artificial creation. If that's the case it make a mockery of films like "The Patriot", where evil Limey bad guys speak a dialect that couldn't have existed at the time.

It seemed a convention at Hollywood that the British accent was used for villains and upper class twits, even though they could't possibly have been British. Listen to the insurance company mamager in "Double Indemnity" for example.