AE and BE, perfect or simple.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 9:18 am

If you are a Standard British English speaker and a speaker of Standard American English asked you the question below, would you assume that the film was still in the cinemas or would you assume that it was no longer showing?

Did you see Nemo?

Stephen Jones · Post by **Stephen Jones** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 9:43 am

I never assume anything

With a British speaker it could be simply that the other person had talked about going to the cinema that weekend, and that we are asking him if he went. It doesn't mean the film is not on.

The 'did', in Brtish English, implies a time scheme that is finished at the time of speaking. We cannot assume more without more information.

lolwhites · Post by **lolwhites** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 9:43 am

As usual, I'd need a bit more context before making any judgement on that one. E.g:

A: I went to the cinema this morning
B: Did you see Nemo?

B sees A coming out of the cinema:
B: Have you seen Nemo?

In both cases the film is still showing unless A went to the final screening. The choice of Past Simple in the first example shows the action is remote in the speaker's mind.

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 9:53 am

Okay, so I don't follow movies and have absolutely no idea of when this Nemo movie began let alone will finish/finished its run; it could even on video by now for all I know. But the context is implicitly to do with cinema going and what I might have seen (not that I told this Yank that I'd be seeing it, so it isn't "shared" information: "Did you see Nemo after all/then?" - see above). Hmm...

I think I'd have to presume that its cinema run was winding down if not totally over, or that it was a movie that was on TV that I'd somehow missed; doesn't sound like it is on video yet (an always available rental/retail medium that lends itself to questions using Present Perfect).

We could clarify thus: "...when it was at the cinema? on TV?"

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 10:53 am

lolwhites wrote:As usual, I'd need a bit more context before making any judgement on that one. E.g:

A: I went to the cinema this morning
B: Did you see Nemo?

B sees A coming out of the cinema:
B: Have you seen Nemo?

In both cases the film is still showing unless A went to the final screening. The choice of Past Simple in the first example shows the action is remote in the speaker's mind.

It could also be that the speaker wants to use his/her first-turn in the conversation to suggest someone should see the film.

Also, why would a BE speaker reply in this way:

Miss AE: Did you see Nemo.

Mr BE: No. I didn't know it had ended its run.

Miss AE: It hasn't.

Mr BE: But, you said ..., erm, past simple, erm?

lolwhites · Post by **lolwhites** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 11:03 am

Mr BE has latched onto one possible interpretation but not the only one.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 11:43 am

lolwhites wrote:Mr BE has latched onto one possible interpretation but not the only one.

At least it is understandable that he made such an error, right?

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 12:12 pm

Hey metal, why'd you let lol expand on the context when it was pretty obvious that you wanted us to envisage only a ("single") general conversational setting - and certainly not the lobby of a cinema at end-of-movie-make-for-exit time?

And why do you seem to reckon "have" is preferable to "did" in your "lobby/foyer" context, lol? (B sees A coming out of the cinema:
B: Have you seen Nemo?).

Heh only joking with the emoticons!

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 12:33 pm

fluffyhamster wrote:Hey metal, why'd you let lol expand on the context when it was pretty obvious that you wanted us to envisage only a ("single") general conversational setting -

Hey' I didn't know I was doing that. I'm happy to hear all contexts.

Heh only joking with the emoticons!

Icon do it also.

lolwhites · Post by **lolwhites** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 2:38 pm

And why do you seem to reckon "have" is preferable to "did" in your "lobby/foyer" context, lol? (B sees A coming out of the cinema:
B: Have you seen Nemo?).

Fair point, on reflection one could equally say did you see..? Comes down to speaker choice again

Who or what is General Conversation? Is he about to stage a coup and make us all use Past Simple?

Seriously, any conversation has a context, even if it's walking up to complete strangers and asking them Did you see/have you seen Nemo?

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 4:20 pm

lolwhites wrote:
Is he about to stage a coup and make us all use Past Simple?

Nothing like that at all.

woodcutter · Post by **woodcutter** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 1:27 am

Aside from the intrinsic and inescapable difficulties with past and perfect tenses, we all do a lot of bumbling and say a lot of non-standard things. (Well, I hope I'm not the only one anyway). I don't think situations arise where people who are chatting jump to conclusions because of a choice between these two tenses.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 7:54 am

woodcutter wrote:
I don't think situations arise where people who are chatting jump to conclusions because of a choice between these two tenses.

What conclusions would you reach about these two "choices" when used by the same speaker on different occasions:

I was living in NY for 10 years.

I lived in NY for 10 years.

lolwhites · Post by **lolwhites** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 10:52 am

What conclusions would you reach about these two "choices" when used by the same speaker on different occasions:

I was living in NY for 10 years.

I lived in NY for 10 years.

In both cases I'd conclude that the speaker no longer lives in NY. The differences lies in the aspect of the action that he/she wishes to emphasise. I lived in NY for 10 years emphasises the closure of the action while I was living in NY for 10 years emphasises the fact it was ongoing.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 11:46 am

lolwhites wrote:
What conclusions would you reach about these two "choices" when used by the same speaker on different occasions:

I was living in NY for 10 years.

I lived in NY for 10 years.
In both cases I'd conclude that the speaker no longer lives in NY. The differences lies in the aspect of the action that he/she wishes to emphasise. I lived in NY for 10 years emphasises the closure of the action while I was living in NY for 10 years emphasises the fact it was ongoing.

That's the feeling I get if an AE speaker asks me a question like:

"Did you see Nemo?" without including some form of modification like "yet". I get a feeling of distancing and closure from the past simple question.

Ms AE: Did you see Nemo?

Mr Metal: No, I didn't.

Ms AE: Oh, you should.

That AE response sounds strange to my BE ears.