Back to basics...

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Mon May 22, 2006 2:09 am

That example doesn't strike me as being that authentic (unless the person being asked is a lawyer who charges by the minute)...I'd start with just a 'Hey,...' or something. So again we're left with a phrase that seems to be functionally vacuous if not redundant (unless you can be an angel and dig up some real killer examples for us

).

abufletcher · Post by **abufletcher** » Mon May 22, 2006 4:17 am

This was indeed an "invented" example but it is very close to how these things actually DO work. These preliminary questions almost never lead directly into the question. They are not "superfluous" but rather do a very specific job in interaction. Namely, as I said above, they are designed to do the work of marking whatever question (action) that eventual does emerge as delicate.

For examples, I suggest you read the Schegloff paper cited above. That more MATESOL programs do not consider this material required reading is a crying shame.

BTW, I have never met a native speaker (EFL teacher or not) who has consciously been aware of the fact that exchanges like the following are extremely rare and do not fit the normative pattern of "pre-pre" use.

A: Could I ask you a question?
B: Sure.
A: How old are you?

Empirical studies of naturally occurring conversation amply demonstrate that this is not the way such sequences typically run. So once again we see a fine demonstration of the inadequacy of "introspection" as a research tool -- even for casual discussion.

abufletcher · Post by **abufletcher** » Mon May 22, 2006 3:09 pm

And of course another "task" these pre-pre's can perform, which is to say another "outcome that they may promote" is that the "question that was to be asked" or the "favor to be given" need never be actually expressed since if done strategically the initiating speaker can perhaps get the talk-recipient to pre-emptively answer the "as yet unspoken" question or offer the as-yet-unasked favor. And these are indeed the sorts of outcomes that participants regularly work to accomplish.

A: Could I ask you a favor?
B: Uh, yeah. Sure.
A: Well my car died this morning and I've got this really big presentation at noon and
B: I could give you a ride.
A: Oh would you? That'd be great!

It's a mistake to think that anything that is regularly found in talk is "extra" or "has no purpose."

The problem is that students haven't learned to do all of this really delicate stuff that goes along with pre-pres so you end up with those annoying sequences you mention:

Student: Can I ask you a question?
Teacher: Sure.
Student: Are you an English teacher.

BTW, I just notices something interesting there while trying to think of a really stupid question to have the student ask. No matter how banal I made the questions (e.g. "How many brothers and sisters do you have?") the conditioning provided by the pre-pre causes me to start thinking about the ways that this "stupid question" might in fact be delicate.

Those people who "just teach grammar" serious underestimate just how subtle and delicately structured conversational interaction is. By comparison written language is a crude as chicken scratchings.

abufletcher · Post by **abufletcher** » Tue May 23, 2006 1:55 am

'Hey,...' or something.

"Hey" does completely different work. Hey is designed to solicit attention, which is to say to secure a talk-recipient. In CA things like this are called a "summon" and are followed by either a verbal or nonverbal "reply" as in the following:

A: Hey! ((obviously very informal))
B: Yeah? ((or just looking up))
A: Do you have the time?

Other summons-reply sequences include the ring of a phone (the "summons") and the stylized "Hello::?" (the "reply", not a greeting). So "hey" does very different work than pre-pres like "Could I ask you a question?"

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 2:23 pm

Note that I wrote 'or something'.

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Fri Nov 23, 2007 2:32 am

Hey, do you think that school were wanting me to demonstrate the concept of remoteness to the kiddies? "Do you like bananas? Yes? Would you like one (versus Do you want one)?"

Nah, what was I thinking.

They probably wanted the two verbs to be taught in the one lesson: "Look, I've brought in some real bananas (I'm a real realia type of guy!). Do you like bananas? No, Kenji, you can't have one just yet, so sit down dammit. Anyway, do you? Yes? Hmm, me too, I guess everybody likes 'em. Now, listen. Do you WANT one? Yes? Well, who'd've thought it - I guess that means that you really do like them, then! I mean, do you remember the first question that I asked you guys? Let's repeat both questions and both answers. Hey, wake up, Yoko! And Kenji, stop eating your banana for just a second, it's rude to talk with your mouth full. Right: Do you like bananas? Yes. Do you want a banana? Yes? Here you are. Now say thank you. Good! Let's say all that again etc."

But maybe that looks a cracking lesson to some, despite the dodgy discourse structure (and the way the methodology might stifle a nice, simple and innocent good nosh, for another thing). I wonder if it could also be used for adults, though...hmm, might come in handy for 'em.

I'm only revisiting this thread because I remembered and mentioned it on the Job forums recently:
http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic ... 316#615316

JuanTwoThree · Post by **JuanTwoThree** » Fri Nov 23, 2007 7:43 am

The thing would be to go into class with a bunch of bananas, ask everybody "Do you like bananas?" and then say "That's interesting" and beggar off at the end of the class with the bananas, or eat them yourself.

Do this innumerable times and then when the time is ripe

you could finally ask "Do you want one?". Mind you you could still not dish out any bananas.

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Fri Nov 23, 2007 4:21 pm

Good tips for any sadistic or hungry teachers out there, JTT.

This just in from Mario Rinvolucri (of 'Don't go there?' thread fame): Personally, I think I'd concentrate just on 'like', especially with adult classes: out of the blue ask, 'Do you like bananas?', then repeatedly raise your eyebrows quizzically and "say no more", especially in response to any male students' affirmative answers. I've found that this helps make me appear less of a humourless bore, can generate some really heated discussion, and has even helped me cop off a few times.