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This and that. Teaching demonstratives.
Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 12:47 am
by metal56
The use of the demonstrative this is correct below, but teaching why it is so is a difficult thing:
The Yukon lay a mile wide and hidden under three feet of ice. On top of this ice were as many feet of snow. [Jack London: To build a fire, short story from the web]
And the differences between such as this:
I couldn’t sleep last night. That dog (next door) kept me awake.
I couldn’t sleep last night. This dog (next door) kept me awake.
Bloody difficult.
Any ideas?
Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 5:46 am
by fluffyhamster
I don't think you can hope to teach all the vagaries of differing personal styles in literature.
There seems to be a difference between saying "That dog next dog" and "This dog next door", however. "That dog" sounds "known", "This dog" sounds "new", as if you've only just recently become aware of it (maybe you've just moved in, or the neighbours have just bought a dog, or it's only started barking just recently); and this/that is the use of it in "irrealis" mode too, isn't it.
"That dog" could be replaced with "The"; "This dog" could be replaced with "A" (except that "This" sounds better). What I am suggesting basically is that "This" be considered a marker of "new" information in speech.
Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:25 pm
by Stephen Jones
The Yukon lay a mile wide and hidden under three feet of ice. On top of this ice were as many feet of snow. [Jack London: To build a fire, short story from the web]
Fail to see any difficulty here. The use of 'this' to refer back to something is very common. Take this example.
Shuntang thought he could learn English perfectly by memorizing all the definitions in his grammar books. This idea let to him being greatly confused, and his readers greatly amused.
I would say that 'That dog kept me awake' uses the distant form because you are indicating a dog on the other side of the wall, whilst in the case of 'this dog', you are trying to bring the offending animal closer to your listeners attention.
I tnink we would say 'That was a very interesting idea' because we are talking about an idea already expressed, and thus wish to distance ourself from it, whereas 'this is an interesting idea' would suggest new informatiion which we would wish to bring our listener closer to.
I don't see why we should go away from the ideas of 'distance' and 'closeness' when we don't need to.[/i]
Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2004 4:29 am
by metal56
fluffyhamster wrote:I don't think you can hope to teach all the vagaries of differing personal styles in literature.
The problem is that I have EAP students who want to go on to study English Lit.
There seems to be a difference between saying "That dog next dog" and "This dog next door", however. "That dog" sounds "known", "This dog" sounds "new", as if you've only just recently become aware of it (maybe you've just moved in, or the neighbours have just bought a dog, or it's only started barking just recently); and this/that is the use of it in "irrealis" mode too, isn't it.
I'm listening. ...
"That dog" could be replaced with "The"; "This dog" could be replaced with "A" (except that "This" sounds better). What I am suggesting basically is that "This" be considered a marker of "new" information in speech.
I agree.
Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2004 4:36 am
by metal56
Stephen Jones wrote:
I don't see why we should go away from the ideas of 'distance' and 'closeness' when we don't need to.[/i]
Me neither. The proximal and the distal can be both objective and subjective concepts.
I would say that 'That dog kept me awake' uses the distant form because you are indicating a dog on the other side of the wall, whilst in the case of 'this dog', you are trying to bring the offending animal closer to your listeners attention.
I like that one. I think it can either be as Fluff says, new or old info., or can be as you say, bringing something, psychologically, close. It depends on the speaker's needs.