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with heart disease

Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2004 2:12 am
by Seiichi MYOGA
Do you think (1) may be ambiguous?

(1) a friend with heart disease

Probably, it is usual to take it that his or her suffering is ongoing, as shown in (2).

(2) a friend who is suffering from heart disease

I wonder if you may take (1) as meaning something like (3).

(3) a friend who suffered from heart disease in the past but now is free from it.

Do you think "with" can refer to someone's past experiences?

Thank you in advance
Seiichi MYOGA

Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2004 3:30 pm
by fluffyhamster
(I've been editing the hell out of this post, and just hope nobody took too much notice of the crappy way that I wrote it before! :oops: ).

Well, Seiichi, "with" can have a past meaning, but only if the verb before it is past (which is already sort of evident in your 'who IS suffering' vs 'who sufferED' "paraphrases"); that is, obviously your first sentence fragment will be as ambiguous as you like until it is contextualized fully in a complete sentence (with a verb)! 8)

1) A: I ran into Bob the other day.
B: He is/was + the guy with the bad heart, right?
A: Not any more! He had an operation!

2) (years later) A: I met Bob last week.
B: *He is + the guy with the bad heart, right?
He was + the guy with the bad heart, right?
A: Yeah. Anyway, he's got this pacemaker that he wants to sell...

Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 2:08 am
by fluffyhamster
I'm just writing this so this shoots to the top of the forum, because I want to make sure that anybody who might've read the old versions of my reply to Seiichi doesn't continue thinking I am bonkers or super stupid (or both!). :oops: The heavily-edited revision is an improvement, I hope! :wink: The old version was so bad and confused (and confusing, if you read it!) because I started thinking about fuller relative clauses (with verbs) rather than just concentrating on "with". :roll: I really should consider getting more of that thing known as "sleep"... :lol:

How much simpler my (and everybody else's) life would be if a) I wasn't so damn stupid and b) always remembered that I am so stupid that I shouldn't be responding so quickly, if at all, to "difficult" grammar questions on Dave's!!! :P

Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 4:08 am
by woodcutter
Surely Seichi is simply asking the wrong question. The preposition has nothing to do with it, and can be used in any tense.

The problem is with "heart disease", becuase since most of us are non medical-experts, we would be unsure whether it is correct to say that *beep* Cheney, who has had a lot of heart trouble but is OK now, as far as I know, is currently suffering from "heart disease".

Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 4:09 am
by woodcutter
I didn't plan that "beep", but I like it!

Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 4:19 am
by fluffyhamster
woodcutter wrote:Surely Seichi is simply asking the wrong question. The preposition has nothing to do with it, and can be used in any tense.
Indeed, he is.* It took me quite a while to work that out, though (because I'm not just a bad writer but, as I said, stupid with it too), but when I finally did, I didn't want to be too direct about it (maybe I am too polite sometimes? 8) ).

* He is therefore almost as stupid as *beep* Cheney, not that *beep* Cheney is interested in matters linguistic. :lol:

Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 4:32 am
by fluffyhamster
woodcutter wrote:The preposition has nothing to do with it, and can be used in any tense.
That's so well said, it's worth quoting it again. It makes me want to delete everything between 'Seichi' and 'obviously' in this part of my first post on this thread:
Well, Seiichi, "with" can have a past meaning, but only if the verb before it is past (which is already sort of evident in your 'who IS suffering' vs 'who sufferED' "paraphrases"); that is, obviously your first sentence fragment will be as ambiguous as you like until it is contextualized fully in a complete sentence (with a verb)!
But I'll leave it all there as a testament not only to my integrity, but also my enduring stupidity. :lol: 8)

Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 3:56 pm
by Seiichi MYOGA
Thank you, fluffyhamster.

And I'm so very sorry at the same time for not having been able to respond to your replies at the right time.

I'd appreciate it if you could tell us what is your honest opinon about "with" highlighted in red below.

Herbert Benson's father died of a heart attack at the age of 59, and Benson was determined not to suffer the same fate. ...
But at 5 a.m. on Christmas Day, 2000, just weeks after getting a clean bill of health from his doctor, Benson woke with pain in his chest. ...
In the aftermath of Benson's heart attack, he got the standard care--angioplasty to open a blocked artery and cholesterol-lowering drugs. But a friend with heart disease kept insisting that Benson should seek further medical advice and visit his doctor. The friend claimed the guy had saved his life.

I'm listening with great attention.
Seiichi MYOGA

As you might probably know, "the guy" is Robert Superko, although I don't know anything about the original source of the passage given above.

Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 8:02 pm
by Stephen Jones
The guy with heart disease has still got it, but it's under control.

Alternatively, the author doesn't know how to write English.

Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 10:19 pm
by fluffyhamster
Okay, let's start over. Let's assume that in 'a friend with heart disease', 'with heart disease' is the equivalent, function-wise, to a relative clause with only the finite (either present or past) forms of 'has' and 'had' (I say only the finite because "have" cannot used in the progressive here).

Now, just because 'with heart disease' is functionally the equivalent (it also modifies/defines/describes the noun 'a friend') of a relative clause does not mean that it too enters into a temporally meaningful relationship with the context (particularly the other verbs) taken as a whole (indeed, a preposition cannot inflect and therefore cannot be in any temporal relationship with the overall context in the same way that a meaningfully-inflected relative clause would obviously [have to] be); put simply, we have to look elsewhere than 'with heart disease' to know 'what the "time" is'.

Where should we look then? At the surrounding context, obviously enough (inside which the modified noun phrase is simply a "character" in a text, which here is a "past" story).

Given all the above, 'a friend with heart disease kept insisting that...doctor.' simply means/can be paraphrased as 'a friend who (still) had heart disease' (and in a list of characters this friend could be chracterized as 'a friend with=who (still) HAS heart disease'). No surprises there!

And even though this friend has had (=had had!) medical advice which has saved (=had saved!) his life, we cannot assume from the context that his ailment was totally cured (and hence "past within an already past context") - to be totally sure, there'd need to be an explicit use of a more complex form than 'with': 'But a friend WHO HAD HAD (='who had used to suffer from' - different from 'who had suffered from'! :wink: ) heart disease kept insisting that Benson should seek further medical advice and visit his doctor. The friend claimed the guy had saved his life (and cured him somehow).'

That is a very long answer, perhaps I should just abruptly (tough sage advice-meister!) say, whilst winking, that 'Past perfect is used for a reason, you know!', or something similarly short and sweet. 8)

Edited-in bit: I see SJ beat me to it with some sage advice! (Actually, I noticed he'd posted something, because I keep two browsers open to save scrolling down to read what's been written, and clicked forward and back again just the once to see if anyone's name in the "answer listings" had replaced Seiichi's, but I resisted the temptation to actually read what SJ had written until I had finished writing my answer above...and even if I had read his post midway through mine, I feel it would've made little difference to what I was going to write and wanted to say :wink:).