Teacher Discussion Forums

Poll.

Would you use:

Beckwood University in Birmingham.

or:

Beckwood university at Birmingham.

or:

Either

'in' for Birmingham, England.
'at' for Birmingham Alabama.

You have forgotten the fourth alternative - 'depends'

Stephen wrote:'in' for Birmingham, England.
'at' for Birmingham Alabama.

Why this particular distinction, pray tell, Stephen?

Larry Latham

Stephen Jones wrote:'in' for Birmingham, England.
'at' for Birmingham Alabama.

Why?

You have forgotten the fourth alternative - 'depends'

I thought "either" would cover that.

'kay. I'm sorry I misunderstood you. I thought you were telling us that "in" was good for one place, whilst "at" was the appropriate preposition for the other.

Larry Latham

Either isn't the same as depends. Either suggests it doesn't matter which you use. Depends suggests that either can be used but not in the same context.

Larry got it right the first time. i was suggesting it depended on place (though really I was referring to the difference between American and British usage). The construction "State University of New York at Alabamy" is very common in the US (four years of reading other people's resumes does teach one something ) However I know of no occasion when you would say it in England. With the University of Wales we appear to avoid the preposition altogether "University of Wales, Swansea" for example according to the web site.

And seeing prepositions are the flavour of the week, it is worth noting that 'in Birmingham' refers to where the building is placed, whereas 'at Birmingham' refers to its statutory location which need not be the same. One could reasonably conceive of a University of the West Midlands at Warwick that was in fact in Coventry.

One could reasonably conceive of a University of the West Midlands at Warwick that was in fact in Coventry.

Well, I guess one could conceive of it, but I think you'd agree, Stephen, that you'd be unlikely to hear it in conversation or encounter it as an actual fact.

However I know of no occasion when you would say it in England.

I presume that here you are referring to the use of "at" when referring to a political entity, such as a city or a province, ie. "at Birmingham". If that is your intention, then I suspect you are wrong about that. I know I'll have to proceed carefully here, because I'm no expert on British English, and I know you are. But it seems to me that it is not only conceivable, but might not really be so strange for someone, let's say a British Airways pilot looking at a weather map of western Europe, to tap his finger on a prominent dot in central England and say to the meteorologist, "What's the weather like at Birmingham?" What do you think? Does that past muster with a Brit native speaker?

Larry Latham

We are talking at cross purposes here Larry. I am talking about the specific construction "University of x at Y". I have only seen this construction used for US universities. One reason is that universities with multiple locations are rare in the UK. The University of Wales is a federal university, but as I said, it appears no preposition is used before each of its eight locations.

As for the more general use of 'at' as opposed to 'in' for places I don't think there is any difference between British Englsh or American English. It all depends on whether the place is conceived of as a one dimensional point or as a three dimensional structure. Practioners of a sport for example would say, "see you at LA" when referring to a sporting even to be held there. The case of airports is also common (and apparently most loved by textbooks )

OK. We're in accord, then. (Any chance that could be "at accord?")

Happy Christmas.

Larry Latham

Stephen Jones wrote:Practioners of a sport for example would say, "see you at LA" when referring to a sporting even to be held there.

That use seems to combine both the location and period/point in time.

Although it may be possible to analyze, "See you at L.A." in this context, it seems to me there is no need to. What is truly important about this expression is that it is, within the sports-fan speech community, instantly understood in its entirety, and without ambiguity. It is, in that community, an institutionalized expression. It captures whatever elements we could possibly attribute to it effortlessly into a wholly shared code.

Larry Latham

Hi everybody, this is my first post. I find the whole issue is confusing. However, saying that at X mean in the same location while saying in Y means in the same neighborhood is the most reasonable explanation.

It's clear that "at" refers, topologically, to a point and "in" to a container:

A X

:........B......: Y

A is at X and B is in Y.

This use of "at" for Universities couldn't have anything to do with campuses, could it? In the US are these places really in the towns whose name they hold? Oxford is in Oxford, Cambridge in Cambridge. Most British universities are in towns (Sussex and Keele notwithstanding).

It's a completely different matter from "at Heathrow" "at LA" "at Picadilly Circus" which are the names of stops on a route (or the sporting calendar). Or "the weather at Birmingham" which reduces Birmingham to the status of a bus-stop (and why not some would say).

What about "at Xmas" and "on Xmas", to change the subject slightly?

This reminds me of an exchange I had with a student a few years back. It went like this:

Student: Do you say in the station or at the station?
Me: Both
Student: But which is correct?
Me: Neither
Student: But which is better?
Me: Wait a minute while I get my gun...

OK, so I made up the last line. I went on to explain how a station could be considered a building containing you, hence in was possible, or a point on a map, so at was also possible.

Seems to me like you handled it as well as you could, lolwhites. What else could you do with such a question? (And, of course, it is a common question).

Larry Latham