Teacher Discussion Forums

Is there a difference between:

1) Are you finished with your homework?

2) Have you finished your homework?

William

Most definitely! And you'll be able to figure it out for yourself, William. I know you already know enough about the English verb system to be able to work it out. Look closely at the verb phrases in each sentence.

Larry Latham

Is it really anything to do with systems?

Anyway, "finished with" means to stop dealing with, so it means 'have you stopped doing your homework, and are thus ready to do something else?'. You may not have actually completed it, as a positive answer to the second example would imply.

Is it really anything to do with systems?

It is everything to do with systems! And exclusively so. William, just work out what the verb forms are in each sentence. Your knowledge of the meanings of forms will tell you everything you need to know.

Larry Latham

Can you enlighten us a bit, Larry? I'm afraid a lot of the type of nuances you seem to able to detect/see/hear pass right by my brain/eyes/ears (I've just not read Lewis as closely as you have, I guess ). Then I'll be able to disagree with you without needing to do any homework of my own.

The first is more hostile, confrontational, the second is less formal. The first is something a teacher might say and a not too permissive mother, the second what a less formal teacher and more permissive mother would say, etc. I think.

If you stop your homework in the middle because you are going to continue tomorrow, then you are finished with it but you haven't finished it.

Atréju wrote:The first is more hostile, confrontational, the second is less formal. The first is something a teacher might say and a not too permissive mother, the second what a less formal teacher and more permissive mother would say, etc. I think.

Mm?:

1) Are you finished with your pie?

2) Have you finished your pie?

In which sentence is there possibly no more pie (in the mind of the speaker)?

Listen to Larry and his suggestion of verb forms and systems.

Larry, are you trying to make us focus exclusively on the difference between are/have? Isn't that rather secondary?

As ever, when the reality of the situation leaves us a choice of tenses, the less direct form, in this case the present perfect, carries the formal, polite and less concerned connotations. (such things don't have to be lodged in the past simple forms!)

OK guys. I thought it was obvious, but perhaps I assumed too much. Let's look at these two sentences as presented by William:

1) Are you finished with your homework?

2) Have you finished your homework?

Isolating the verb phrases in these sentences we have 1) are finished, and 2) have finished. Expressly, sentence 1) contains a present passive form, and number 2) a present perfect form. Both forms use the third form (or past participle) of the verb itself, which can sometimes be confusing to students, or teachers, for that matter. Both of these sentences contain present verb forms.

Now, I thought William, and the rest of you too, would be able to figure out the salient difference between a present passive and a present perfect. Here we go. Present passive is a simple tense, which is to say that it is concerned exclusively with the factual elements of the situation under discussion. Time is not an issue within the verb phrase. There might, however, be other words or phrases in the sentence which refer to the timing of events, so please note I am not claiming that time is never an issue in sentences with present passive verb forms. But in our example sentence 1), there are no timing words, so we know that the meaning is entirely about the fact of whether or not the homework is finished. Period!

Present perfect, on the other hand, contains aspect, or timing information imbedded within the verb phrase, as all perfect forms do. In this case, since it is a present perfect form, the timing includes the present moment and looks backwards in time towards the event under discussion. It is the direction of time that is the central issue in passives, and that direction is always backwards from the point-of-view specified by the form of the auxiliary (have). In this case, sentence 2) looks backwards from NOW to the moment at which the homework is finished.

But now we must remember that both example sentences in this case are questions. That means that the speaker, contrary to when he is making an assertion, is requesting the listener to express his view of things. So that...

1) Are you finished with your homework?
...can ba paraphrased as "Is it a fact that your homework is done?"

While...

2) Have you finished with your homework?
...can be paraphrased as "Is it a fact that your homework was done before now?"

Neither is 'more hostile or confrontational' than the other. That will depend on the manner in which the words are spoken, not on the verb form. Nor does the difference in form imply anything absolute about whether the homework is in fact completed. That may or may not be an assumption of either the speaker or the listener (or both). But both could refer to a cessation of homework, even if it is not completed.

The complete, and only, difference between the sentences is that one refers only to fact, and the other refers to timing as well as fact. Of course, we all can tell that the pragmatic difference is minute. The speaker wants to know if the homework is finished (whether that means completed or not is technically still up for grabs). So if William was referring to the pragmatic difference in his original post, then the answer has to be, "Not really." But his question asked only if there was a difference, and to that we reply as above.

All right. Class dismissed.

Larry Latham

You're riding a little high on the old horse here Larry, when at least two of us think that "finished with" as opposed to "finished" is the salient point. (And when it is SJ backing me, I feel confident!)

It even seems though that Metal thinks so too, though probably the best answer to his slightly odd question is "both".

Hmm, great paraphrases there, Larry.

So, even though you said there was 'Most definitely!' a difference between the two questions, if only we'd look at the verb phrases, what you're in fact saying, Larry, is that there is no meaningful difference (which was rather what I at least was hoping there would be) between those questions. I feel cheated and I want my money back! Refund! Refund!

Hmm, so in both questions, the speaker doesn't know if the homework is finished, we also can't see (removed as we are even from the "now" of asking) how the student is behaving, and consequently we can't even begin to imagine the emotion behind and prosody of the questions. Wow, we sure know a lot!

What then is the advice we can give to William? I think woodcutter has provided the clearest answer (I somehow missed his first post there before, it's like Larry's loomed larger or something!). The most obvious difference is the presence/absence of 'with' (="using; doing"), so I would be looking for further examples of that, after both 'Are you finished with...?' and 'Have you finished with...?', and asking how they both (together, as a pair) contrast with the good old-fashioned plain and simple 'Have you finished your homework (yet)?' that students know and love so well.

So, in this instance, William, I suspect that nobody really needs to be able to say more than 'Have you finished your homework?' in most imaginable situations, which we might usefully compare with 'Have/Are you finished with John's homework yet? I want to copy his answers now, before that TV show begins' (and we could further compare that last example there with, 'Have you finished John's homework yet? I hope he's paying you a lot to do it for him!').

woodcutter wrote:You're riding a little high on the old horse here Larry, when at least two of us think that "finished with" as opposed to "finished" is the salient point. (And when it is SJ backing me, I feel confident!)

It even seems though that Metal thinks so too, though probably the best answer to his slightly odd question is "both".

Yes. Sorry for butting in.

Sorry guys. I don't buy your conclusion. If the discussion had been between these two:

a) Are you finished with your homework?

b) Is your homework finished?

...then I would be inclined to buy your idea that "with" introduces a salient factor, although someone would have to explain away the difference in grammatical subject.

But as they stand, with William's two sentences, no cigar. For me, the difference in verb form is the most significant difference. And sorry, Fluffy, the pragmatic difference is not great, but that does not mean that the difference is not meaningful.

As to the notion that the speaker does not know whether the homework is completed, note that that's the case with both sentences, so it has nothing to do with the differences between them. That only derives from two possible interpretations of the meaning of the word, "finished." Finished, as a temporal concept might not convey the same sense or awareness as finished, as a qualitative concept.

Larry Latham

Thanks for introducing the additional complications, Larry.

Is there much point in talking about a difference in grammatical subject when we all know that homework doesn't ever complete itself? Or did you have a house elf or something to do all yours? So, I think we can disregard your 'Is your...?' sentence pretty much immediately, for all practical purposes.

I'm not sure to which pair of sentences you are referring when you begin talking about temporal vs. qualitative differences, William's original pair or your new pair (I guess the latter).

Anyway, you must admit that the "Please give me" (among other) functions of the sentence(s that I paired up) - 'Are/Have you finished with...', could be helpful pedagogically.

We shouldn't feel under any obligation to present several ways to say the same thing if, in answer to the inevitable requests for better and more detailed explanations from students, we risk confusing not only them but ourselves. Language is the great teacher, but sometimes it does have to surrender to more immediate and practical concerns.

I'm not saying that what you've said is wrong, Larry, but if the distinctions you're making are ultimately too fine for anyone (especially students) to really appreciate, then other "answers" are going to need to be sought.