Teacher Discussion Forums

Hi.

A quickie.

Would you say that these two are both valid usage?

Please let me know if you need those issues resent.
Please let me know if you need those issues resending.

And these?

Let me know if you need those cars washing.
Let me know if you need those cars washed.

Cheers.

Yup

Personally I say need something DONE, but I can't see anything wrong with doing it the other way. I suspect that's just a personal preference but we'll have to see what others think.

lolwhites wrote:Yup

Personally I say need something DONE, but I can't see anything wrong with doing it the other way. I suspect that's just a personal preference but we'll have to see what others think.

Thanks.

Which would you say here?

If you need something doing, do it yourself.
If you need something done, do it yourself.

In the cases you put forward I would use past participle. I have heard "need" used with the gerund, but in those cases the object becomes the subject, almost like passive voice. In other words, my ear will accept the gerund only if it is directly after "need" with nothing in between.

These examples sound fine to me.
"I need the cars washed."
="The cars need washing."

"You need to get those chores done."
="Those chores need doing."


In some rural US dialects, I have also heard:
"The cars need washed."
"The chores need done."
They don't sound right to me, but I have heard them.


I have never heard:
"If you need something doing, do it yourself."
"Please let me know if you need those issues resending."
Are they British, possibly?

Tara B wrote:In the cases you put forward I would use past participle. I have heard "need" used with the gerund, but in those cases the object becomes the subject, almost like passive voice. In other words, my ear will accept the gerund only if it is directly after "need" with nothing in between.

These examples sound fine to me.
"I need the cars washed."
"The cars need washing."

"You need to get those chores done."
"Those chores need doing."


In some rural US dialects, I have also heard:
"The cars need washed."
"The chores need done."
They don't sound right to me, but I have heard them.


I have never heard:
"If you need something doing, do it yourself."
"Please let me know if you need those issues resending."
Are they British, possibly?

Thanks for such a detailed reply. I have feeling this may be another BE/AE thing.

The British queen wouldn't say 'em, but the geezer wot washes 'er cars might, innit.

Now I'm curious. Which ones wouldn't the British queen say?

The British queen wouldn't like the "ing" forms.

Well, assuming that she always acts posh, which probably isn't the case.....

woodcutter wrote:The British queen wouldn't like the "ing" forms.

Well, assuming that she always acts posh, which probably isn't the case.....

Seriously though, can you help out here? What is your view on constructions like:

If you need those sentences explaining (to you), just ask.

metal56 wrote:

woodcutter wrote:The British queen wouldn't like the "ing" forms.

Well, assuming that she always acts posh, which probably isn't the case.....

Seriously though, can you help out here? What is your view on constructions like:

If you need those sentences explaining (to you), just ask.

It surely must be a British thing if it's acceptable, because to my American "ears" it sounds wrong.

I just mean they sound like common informal verbal constructions to me, but would jar in a formal context.

Lorikeet wrote:

metal56 wrote:

woodcutter wrote:The British queen wouldn't like the "ing" forms.

Well, assuming that she always acts posh, which probably isn't the case.....

Seriously though, can you help out here? What is your view on constructions like:

If you need those sentences explaining (to you), just ask.

It surely must be a British thing if it's acceptable, because to my American "ears" it sounds wrong.

Yes, not AE at all. Some BE users use it.

woodcutter wrote:I just mean they sound like common informal verbal constructions to me, but would jar in a formal context.

Thanks.

Pg.36 of R.L.Trask's "Language Change Workbook" is dead on this topic - pehaps the origin of it?

He says the "ing" form is (very roughly) normal in the north, midlands and SW (of Britain). Which is sort of what I said.

woodcutter wrote:Pg.36 of R.L.Trask's "Language Change Workbook" is dead on this topic - pehaps the origin of it?

He says the "ing" form is (very roughly) normal in the north, midlands and SW (of Britain). Which is sort of what I said.

Yes, those areas, and London, are where I've heard it.

............

Conclusion reached by John Lawler, linguist:

Dear M56

Very interesting question.

I've never encountered any of these constructions before, in a life spent in the USA.
I would use the past participle, not the present, in all of these constructions.

I have, however, encountered something like it, but spectacularly reversed:

In some regions of the U.S. (and I'm sure in other regions worldwide),
the following construction is common:
This car needs washed.
I would use the present participle in this construction, not the past:
This car needs washing.

What everybody needs to understand is that there is no such thing as
"The English Language", the same for everybody. In fact, everybody
learns their own language, and then we all spend our lives trying to
pass as English speakers.

In your idiolect, "need/want" can take a past participle; in others',
they take only a present participle. That's the extent of it, really.
You happen to speak a different idiolect from that of your correspondents.

So, what else is new? There are hundreds of such differences
between the speech of anyone and anyone else, if they only
cared enough to document them. Neither is right, absolutely.
Both are right, relatively.

Perhaps this is what Benedict XVI was warning about -- "the
dictatorship of relativism". No doubt there will be an encyclical
about it in time. In the meantime, take some advice from the
Hitchhiker's Guide, and Don't Panic. Go right ahead and speak
and write English as it seems correct to you.

Cheers,
-j

Interesting.