Said by a salesperson to a client after sending documentation:
You will probably have noticed our new logo.
How is will being used here?
And here:
Said by a representative of the police to the press after an accident:
You will have seen the photos of the damage.
Cheers!
Will
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Here the future perfect tense form "will have + infinitive" is being used to express a presumption that the addressee has reacted in a certain way.
The same idea can be expressed using the verb "expect".
"You will have noticed our new logo" = the speaker presumes that the addressee has noticed the new logo. This idea can be rephrased as:
"I expect (that) you have noticed our new logo"
Similarly, the other sentence can be rephrased as: "I expect you have seen the photos of the damage".
The same idea can be expressed using the verb "expect".
"You will have noticed our new logo" = the speaker presumes that the addressee has noticed the new logo. This idea can be rephrased as:
"I expect (that) you have noticed our new logo"
Similarly, the other sentence can be rephrased as: "I expect you have seen the photos of the damage".
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Norm Ryder
- Posts: 118
- Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2003 9:10 pm
- Location: Canberra, Australia
will
"Modal" could, in fact, be the solution. Some people would probably still use "would have" in these situations instead of "will have" (my wife agrees that we do!), but this is probably regarded as rather formal (even literary?) by many.
In conversation, of course, we'd say "You'd probably have noticed our new logo", which makes it sound much less formal.
Or is there a difference between British and American English here?
Cheers
Norm
In conversation, of course, we'd say "You'd probably have noticed our new logo", which makes it sound much less formal.
Or is there a difference between British and American English here?
Cheers
Norm
will/would
Howdy to you and your wife.
I would use "You'd probably have noticed our new logo" with (in ellipsis or not) as one was doing other things or including/amongst other things.
I dunno. Have to think.
Cheers from a sunny Madrid.
I would use "You'd probably have noticed our new logo" with (in ellipsis or not) as one was doing other things or including/amongst other things.
I dunno. Have to think.
Cheers from a sunny Madrid.
I don't see "will/would" as modal here: it is simply, as you say, expressing a presumed past event in the context of a situation future to that event.
I agree that "would have seen" is a bit more informal, so there is a modal component here. But I think I would have used "will have" in the examples you give, which require a degree of formality.
I agree that "would have seen" is a bit more informal, so there is a modal component here. But I think I would have used "will have" in the examples you give, which require a degree of formality.
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LarryLatham
- Posts: 1195
- Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2003 6:33 pm
- Location: Aguanga, California (near San Diego)
"Will"
Indeed.
The use of "will" does not always indicate referral to future time. Consider this sentence:
I expect they will be there by now.
It is abundantly clear the speaker here is referring to now rather than the future. In fact, will is, I believe, always modal, and always refers to a presumption made by the speaker, as Harzer pointed out earlier. It is precisely the will that marks the presumption, and not the combination with the other elements of future perfect form. Even when a speaker does use it to place something in future time, that very fact means that he knows what he says is a presumption, since nothing in the future can be construed as fact. Who knows what may happen in the meantime to change present assumptions. So "will" makes reference to the presumption by the speaker (an opinion), and not directly to future time. It is an extremely stable feature of the language.
No difference between British and American that I'm aware of, Norm.
Larry Latham
The use of "will" does not always indicate referral to future time. Consider this sentence:
I expect they will be there by now.
It is abundantly clear the speaker here is referring to now rather than the future. In fact, will is, I believe, always modal, and always refers to a presumption made by the speaker, as Harzer pointed out earlier. It is precisely the will that marks the presumption, and not the combination with the other elements of future perfect form. Even when a speaker does use it to place something in future time, that very fact means that he knows what he says is a presumption, since nothing in the future can be construed as fact. Who knows what may happen in the meantime to change present assumptions. So "will" makes reference to the presumption by the speaker (an opinion), and not directly to future time. It is an extremely stable feature of the language.
No difference between British and American that I'm aware of, Norm.
Larry Latham
Will
Hello,
I realize this thread is from 2003, but I felt impelled to correct what you were saying about American English. I found your discussion fascinating, and I’m even more curious about the differences between British and North American English.
One of your examples was as follows:
“Said by a salesperson to a client after sending documentation:
You will probably have noticed our new logo.”
The sentence “You will probably have noticed our new logo” sounds very quaint to me – by the way, I grew up in the States, and have now lived in Canada for about 35 years. We would say something like, “I assume you’ve noticed our new logo” or “You’ve probably noticed ….” I should admit, though, that in the spoken English of Canada and the US, the present perfect is frequently being replaced by the simple past these days: therefore, you might hear “I assume you noticed our new logo.” Using the past simple in this way is still incorrect, but it is happening more and more.
Dori
I realize this thread is from 2003, but I felt impelled to correct what you were saying about American English. I found your discussion fascinating, and I’m even more curious about the differences between British and North American English.
One of your examples was as follows:
“Said by a salesperson to a client after sending documentation:
You will probably have noticed our new logo.”
The sentence “You will probably have noticed our new logo” sounds very quaint to me – by the way, I grew up in the States, and have now lived in Canada for about 35 years. We would say something like, “I assume you’ve noticed our new logo” or “You’ve probably noticed ….” I should admit, though, that in the spoken English of Canada and the US, the present perfect is frequently being replaced by the simple past these days: therefore, you might hear “I assume you noticed our new logo.” Using the past simple in this way is still incorrect, but it is happening more and more.
Dori
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Andrew Patterson
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- Location: Poland
- Contact:
A couple of years ago I was talking about precisely these kinds of uses of will with a Canadian colleague. When I gave an example (I forget which, it was a while back) she immediately cut in and said "In Canada we don't do that."" When I asked what she'd say instead, she replied I think/expect/suppose.... This seems to be at odds with what some American English-speaking posters on this forum say, though.
Re: Will
In both, I think the sentences show that something is less than certain, but possible. Kind of like a subjective tense in English?metal56 wrote:Said by a salesperson to a client after sending documentation:
You will probably have noticed our new logo.
How is will being used here?
And here:
Said by a representative of the police to the press after an accident:
You will have seen the photos of the damage.
Cheers!