Page 1 of 3
Present perfect is hard!
Posted: Fri May 13, 2005 12:14 pm
by Tara B
I'm curious:
When do you guys introduce present perfect? (beginners, intermediate, or advanced?)
When you teach it for the first time, what do you focus on: verb forms, grammatical construction, meaning, comparing it to simple past? Do you limit yourselves to a certain application (such as "yet," or "ever"), or to a certain list of verbs (such as, well. . . regular ones)?
My students have found it to be quite overwhelming!
Posted: Fri May 13, 2005 10:38 pm
by Lorikeet
At the risk of leaving my simplistic explanations open to ridicule, I will answer your question. In our school, present perfect is generally on the list for introduction at the low intermediate level. I usually use the "I've been here for five years/since 2000." type sentence to start them off, since it is a very common construction and one that they will hear. (How long have you been here?) Some of the constructions with present perfect are becoming more optional in conversational English (We've been over this territory before--"Have you eaten yet?" vs. "Did you eat yet?" for example) Of course, I also explain that there are many other uses for the present perfect that they will study in the future. Sometimes I give them an overview of them and sometimes I don't.
--Lorikeet
Posted: Sun May 15, 2005 4:51 pm
by stephen
The key to Present Perfect Simple or any Perfect Tense is establishing the existance of two times, here Present and a Past time. I find time lines and real experiences work well for this.
Stephen
Posted: Sun May 15, 2005 4:56 pm
by stephen
Regarding verb forms, I certainly introduce irregular ones first as they are easier!!! Students can hear the difference between go and been with ease; unfortunately, the same cannot be said for walk and walked. Students need a lot of focused listening practice to learn to hear the difference between present and past/past participle forms of regular verbs. These are only easier in written form; in spoken form they cause all sorts of problems because so many students simply can't hear them!!
Stephen
Posted: Wed May 18, 2005 7:17 pm
by Tara B
I agree that irregulars are often easier than regulars.
But, even so, I find that trying to learn verb forms--(2 forms? 3 forms? 1 form?***) and the (quite subtle) difference between present perfect and past is a bit much. Puts a big damper on fluency or the chances of the students actually being able to use it.
I have been wondering about doing some abstract study on verb forms in preparation for this (I know, a lot of communicative people will have my head. . .) or possibly, working from a (very limited) list (short enough to memorize). I am talking about intermediate students, of course, the first time the concept is introduced. Then you could go into more detail in your advanced classes.
***Maybe I should explain myself: walk/walked/walked vs. go/went/gone vs. put/put/put.
Posted: Thu May 19, 2005 12:58 am
by fluffyhamster
Posted: Thu May 19, 2005 7:33 am
by Andrew Patterson
FH wrote:
Was that Shun's last post, did you drive him away by writing, "Don't come back"?
Posted: Thu May 19, 2005 9:33 am
by fluffyhamster
I'm pretty sure Shun continued with his rearguard insurgency for a little longer, Andy - why, do you want him to come back and fill us in on all the grammar we couldn't possibly know half as well as him (being the studious learner that he is, with his excellent grasp of English and its tenses and aspects)?
Posted: Thu May 19, 2005 3:59 pm
by Andrew Patterson
FH wrote:
I'm pretty sure Shun continued with his rearguard insurgency for a little longer, Andy
I don't think he did, I did a search and that was the last post that I found. I think you really upset him.
He has continued on other forums, however.
Posted: Thu May 19, 2005 7:13 pm
by fluffyhamster
I don't think I was being too hard on him at all though, Andy - he had it coming for a long time.
I mean, what he wrote on that thread at least really was absolute drivel, and although the forums could do with a bit of enlivening lately, I don't think Shun/Xui is really the guy we want doing it (again).
Posted: Thu May 19, 2005 10:45 pm
by woodcutter
On those other forums, has Shunxui got round to any other issues?
The present perfect HAS BEEN bothering him for some time now!
Posted: Fri May 20, 2005 7:56 am
by Andrew Patterson
Yes, he has Woodcutter. On being told that he overuses the word "shall" he wrote this:
If one searches for "shall future tense", one will see there are many grammar website talking about SHALL as a future tense. When will it be replaced completely or largely by WILL? I really cannot tell. Following the ten commandments in the bible, lawmakers nowadays still write rules or laws mainly in SHALL, rather than WILL. (If you challenge me to post examples here, please do.) Therefore, when will SHALL be completely replaced by WILL? The time is when the bible is completely replaced by a new grammar book. This shall never happen, in my point of view. This is my humble opinion.
Posted: Fri May 20, 2005 2:46 pm
by Stephen Jones
'Shall' of course is not used as a 'future' tense in English translations of the decalogue, which is why it is unlikely to be replaced by 'will'.
www.bible.org does replace it by 'must' in the version of the ten commandments in Deutoronomy 5,
The Ten Commandments
5:6 “I am the Lord your God, he who brought you from the land of Egypt, from the place of slavery.
5:7 You must not have any other gods besides me.
5:8 You must not make for yourself an image of anything in heaven above, on earth below, or in the waters beneath.
5:9 You must not worship or serve them, for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God. I punish the sons, grandsons, and great-grandsons for the sin of the fathers who reject me,
:10 but I show covenant faithfulness to the thousands who choose me and keep my commandments.
5:11 You must not make use of the name of the Lord your God for worthless purposes, for the Lord will not exonerate anyone who abuses his name that way.
5:12 Be careful to observe the Sabbath day just as the Lord your God has commanded you.
5:13 You are to work and do all your tasks in six days,
5:14 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. On that day you must not do any work, you, your son, your daughter, your male slave, your female slave, your ox, your donkey, any other animal, or the foreigner who lives with you, so that your male and female slaves, like yourself, may have rest.
5:15 Recall that you were slaves in the land of Egypt and that the Lord your God brought you out of there by strength and power; therefore, the Lord your God has commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.
5:16 Honor your father and your mother just as the Lord your God has commanded you to do, so that your days may be extended and that it may go well with you in the land that he is about to give you.
5:17 You must not murder.
5:18 You must not commit adultery.
5:19 You must not steal.
5:20 You must not offer false testimony against another.
5:21 You must not desire another man’s wife, nor should you crave his house, his field, his male and female servants, his ox, his donkey, or anything else he owns.”
but strangely keeps 'shall' in the version in Exodus 20.
The Decalogue
20:1 And God spoke all these words:
20:2 I, the Lord, am your God, who brought you from the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
20:3 You shall have no other gods before me.
20:4 You shall not make for yourself a carved image or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on earth under it, or that is in the water below.
20:5 You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I, the Lord, your God, am a jealous God, who visits the iniquity of fathers on children, even to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me,
20:6 but who extends faithful love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.
20:7 You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold guiltless anyone who takes his name in vain.
20:8 Remember the Sabbath day to sanctify it.
20:9 For six days you may labor and do all your work,
20:10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God; on it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, or your male servant, or your female servant, or your cattle, or your resident foreigner who is in your gates.
20:11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth and the sea and all that is in them, and he rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and sanctified it.
20:12 Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land the Lord your God is giving to you.
20:13 You shall not murder.
20:14 You shall not commit adultery.
20:15 You shall not steal.
20:16 You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
20:17 You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that belongs to your neighbor.
The 'Good News Bible' uses
'do not'.
Posted: Fri May 20, 2005 3:51 pm
by lolwhites
You don't agree with Lewis's assertion that shall means will (if I have anything to do with it) then? I would have thought it accounts for the use of shall in the 10 Commandments, not to mention Cinderella's fairy godmother telling her you shall go to the ball.
Posted: Fri May 20, 2005 4:39 pm
by Stephen Jones
Somehow I can't imagine God having to add the rider "if I have anything to do with it".
Does provide an interesting third alternative to the dichotomy of predestination versus free will though.