Teacher Discussion Forums

Do you think we can use either of the two sentences below to report the same situation?

(1) If John sings arias, it bothers me. (Emonds 1985)
(2) When John sings arias, it bothers me.

Thank you in advance
Seiichi MYOGA

Yes. The key here is that in sentence (1), the second half, it bothers me, refers to a true fact; we can therefore conclude that if John sings arias must, in this case, refer to something that actually happens or the sentence would make no sense. Comparing if and when here is a bit of a red herring.

Dear lolwhites,

I appreciate your help and comments.

Do you agree that the choice between (1) and (2) depends on your choice of (1') or (2') as your premises; you will choose (1) if (1') is your presupposition, and if (2') is your starting point of argumentation, you will switch to (2)?

(1) If John sings arias, it bothers me. (Emonds 1985)
(2) When John sings arias, it bothers me.

(1') John has sung arias before, but I'm not so sure he will do the same thing again.
(2') John often (or always) sing arias, and I'm sure he will do the same thing again.

Seiichi MYOGA

If you want a second opinion, you're getting a bit too worried by the difference between "if" and "when" in these zero conditionals.

From my point of view there is often nothing to choose between "if", "when", "if ever" and "whenever" in these situations.

Clearly there is an element of pessimism in some cases:

If the sun shines, we go to the pool

When the sun shines, we go to the pool

But in the case of John and his arias I see no difference at all.

Seiichi - Please don't take this the wrong way, but I notice that many of your threads focus on the difference between if and when in contexts where that difference is minimal or non-existent. With respect, I think you are over-analysing here.

I understand that, as a non-native speaker, you don't have the same intuitions and so worry that there may be a difference, but now that it's been pointed out to you by different people on different occasions, you really ought to stop worrying about it.

JuanTwoThree wrote:If you want a second opinion, you're getting a bit too worried by the difference between "if" and "when" in these zero conditionals.

From my point of view there is often nothing to choose between "if", "when", "if ever" and "whenever" in these situations.

Dear JuanTwoThree,

I appreciate your help and comments, but I'd like you to be more specific here.

Do you agree with what I said in my previous post, or do you not?

Seiichi MYOGA

Dear lolwhites,

I do appreciate your advice and concern. But I'd appreciate it even more if you could concentrate on a question someone has asked in this forum and give your own answer. Then what you ought to have said previously would be just one word: "No." And no more or less.
Don't get me wrong. I have no hard feelings at all on you.

Seiichi MYOGA

OK, I don't agree that you can get any information about what may or may not happen again from the choice of when or if, in this case.

So my answer to your first post: Do you think we can use either of the two sentences below to report the same situation?

is Yes, I do

and to your question: Do you agree that the choice between (1) and (2) depends on your choice of (1') or (2') as your premises; you will choose (1) if (1') is your presupposition, and if (2') is your starting point of argumentation, you will switch to (2)?

(1) If John sings arias, it bothers me. (Emonds 1985)
(2) When John sings arias, it bothers me.

(1') John has sung arias before, but I'm not so sure he will do the same thing again.
(2') John often (or always) sing arias, and I'm sure he will do the same thing again.

is No I don't.

As I've said elsewhere, my question has nothing at all to do with whether something may or may not happen again. But I appreciate your help and comments as much, JuanTwoThree.

JuanTwoThree wrote:OK, I don't agree that you can get any information about what may or may not happen again from the choice of when or if, in this case.

Seiichi MYOGA

If your question had nothing do do with it happening again then you could have fooled me

It was you after all who asked:

"Do you agree that the choice between (1) and (2) depends on your choice of (1') or (2') as your premises; you will choose (1) if (1') is your presupposition, and if (2') is your starting point of argumentation, you will switch to (2)?

(1) If John sings arias, it bothers me. (Emonds 1985)
(2) When John sings arias, it bothers me.

(1') John has sung arias before, but I'm not so sure he will do the same thing again.
(2') John often (or always) sing arias, and I'm sure he will do the same thing again"

I'm glad we agree that if he will or won't do it again is not the question, though I got the impression from the above that it was.

As I say, there is little or no difference between these examples but if there is any difference at all it can only be how often the arias are sung.