Teacher Discussion Forums

I wonder how to use "when/if/that" adequately.

(1) She can't bear it when people criticise her work, and she gets very upset. (M. Hewings, Advanced Grammar in Use)

(2) She can't bear it if people criticise her work, and she gets very upset.

(3) She can't bear it that people criticise her work, and she gets very upset.

Do you agree behind each of the above-mentioned sentences, you will find the premises of (1') to (3') in this order?

(1') People often (or always) criticise her work and I'm sure they will do the same thing again.

(2') People have criticised her work before but I'm not so sure people will do the same thing again.

(3') I know for a fact that people criticize her work.

Thank you in advance

Seiichi MYOGA

There may be a ranking of frequency implied in these three (1 that, 2 when , 3 if) but think about where you could put abverbs like occasionally, often or sometimes and change this.

Any such frequency adverb could be used in any of your examples so I don't think there is any hint of what is likely to happen again.

Dear JuanTwoThree,

I appreciate your help and comments.

Let's concentrate on "a ranking of frequency implied in these three."
Could you please explain what you mean by that?

I'd like you to put aside adverbs of frequency, because after all, there's no such thing in the original three sentences and there's also other factors that will have to do with the lack of lexical properties of "if" or "when."

Seiichi MYOGA

What I mean is that if I was pushed, I would say that 3 may occur more often than 2 and 2 more than 1:

3 I can't bear it that you criticise me

2 I can't bear it when you criticise me

1 I can't bear it if you criticise me

But this is a nuance rather than a meaning. There is no difference as to if you'll do it again.

Dear JuanTwoThree,

I appreciate your help and comments.

Now I understand what you meant by "frequency."

Seiichi MYOGA

But it might be fair to say that Google tells us a different story:
We can get 111 hits for "I can't bear it that...", 714 hits for "I can't bear it when ...", and 376 hits for "I can't bear it if..."

There is no difference as to if you'll do it again.

My question was not about whether something will happen again but about the speaker's level of certainty of something happening and/or cognition of the frequency with which something happens. But thank you all the same.

I don't make myself clear.

What I mean is that the choice of that/when/if may be a measure of the frequency of the action described on the part of the speaker, nothing to do with how commonly each form is in fact used .

It bothers me that you are late (You are late more often than when I say:)

It bothers me when you are late (And you are more often late than when I say:)

It bothers me if you are late .

This is the difference if any. I have no idea which is the the most
common.

You say that it's not a question of what will happen again but that's what I understood by your question:

"Do you agree behind each of the above-mentioned sentences, you will find the premises of (1') to (3') in this order?

(1') People often (or always) criticise her work and I'm sure they will do the same thing again.

(2') People have criticised her work before but I'm not so sure people will do the same thing again.

(3') I know for a fact that people criticize her work. "

This thread reminded me a bit of another:
http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/teacher/v ... hp?p=16566

I broadly agree with the comments in the link you posted FH. Though I really don't know how much conscious or even unconscious thought goes into the choice of the word that springs from our lips at the moment of saying "that" or "if" or "because" etc . I'm sure there is a deep psychological reason for every word we utter, but one gets the impression that we are just ploughing on regardless, stuttering and changing course:

"Do you know what really bothers....It really bothers that if.... bothers me that is, Fluffy, does it bother you if I call you Fluffy, good..... anyway I'm really bothered that you're late, I mean, because it's a real bother when somebody is late, if they're late and y'know you are late and it doesn't happen much I know, well quite a lot actually, recently anyway etcetera

Having said that, there are contexts where "that" is a bit different because you would say:

"It bothers me that you are late because you've never been late before."

So in one context "It bothers me that you are late" could be said on the first and perhaps last occasion that you are late. Nevertheless in the specific case of :

(1) She can't bear it when people criticise her work, and she gets very upset.

(2) She can't bear it if people criticise her work, and she gets very upset.

(3) She can't bear it that people criticise her work, and she gets very upset.

I don't think there's anything to choose between them unless you hold a pistol to my head in which case it remains a question of how often her work is criticized (3, 1,2)

Ooh, you didn't have to give me any feedback (just posted the link for people's reference), but thanks for doing so anyway, JTT! In return, I should tell you that I agree with what you've written here. And WOW, who needs the spoken component of the BNC when they've got you to churn out data-like stuff! Could be of use to metal (don't tell him where you "got it" from though)!