"Now" in past narratives.

[metal56]

Please see poll.

[Andrew Patterson]

This is so obvious to a native speaker that it isn't really worth asking. You should get 100% unless someone who has just rejoined the forum votes and he could vote either way.

It isn't obvious to learners and we need to tell them that "now" does not always refer to present time..

[metal56]

This is so obvious to a native speaker that it isn't really worth asking. You should get 100% unless someone who has just rejoined the forum votes and he could vote either way.

It isn't obvious to learners and we need to tell them that "now" does not always refer to present time..

Is this forum only for native speakers?

I posted the same on another forum and at least 60% of the native speakers said it was incorrect and bad English. Surprised?

[Andrew Patterson]

Metal wrote:

Is this forum only for native speakers?

I think you may be reading my intent incorrectly by asking this question.

I posted the same on another forum and at least 60% of the native speakers said it was incorrect and bad English. Surprised?

That does surprise me slightly. It may be that respondees have not thought carefully enough about the statement and are responding in a "Where do you bury the surviors?" way.

Let me explain. There is a riddle that goes something like this,

A: A plane crashes on the French-Italian border, where do you bury the survivors?"
B: I don't know.
A: Ha! Ha! You don't bury survivors.

That is to say, they have been distracted by focusing on something else which is not in fact the most important thing to consider because the question is unusual. In your example, they may not consider the special use of "now" which they themselves may subconciously use.

I think we had a discussion on this before. Didn't we agree that this use of "now" in this way refers to present time within the framework of the story but not to our own framework of time?

[metal56]

I think we had a discussion on this before. Didn't we agree that this use of "now" in this way refers to present time within the framework of the story but not to our own framework of time?

That's exactly its function.

[Lorikeet]

This is so obvious to a native speaker that it isn't really worth asking. You should get 100% unless someone who has just rejoined the forum votes and he could vote either way.

It isn't obvious to learners and we need to tell them that "now" does not always refer to present time..

Mea culpa. I clicked too fast and chose the "no" button, because I thought it sounded "wrong" but it wasn't the "now" with past continuous that bothered me. It was the connection with the first part.

Let's see....I'd prefer, "People who came to the shop after the owner's death were surprised to see how well it was doing since Tom was now running it." (Tom being that ne'er do well son of his. )

[metal56]

Let's see....I'd prefer, "People who came to the shop after the owner's death were surprised to see how well it was doing since Tom was now running it." (Tom being that ne'er do well son of his. )

I can see that you must get through a lot of pens in a week.

[woodcutter]

Why can't we ever move on to the next level? Yes, that sentence is correct. No, Metal's general web-wide quest to delink time and tense is not correct.

[metal56]

Complex time in narratives.

"... and that's how it all happened. The events I have just related to you, dear reader, took place over a thousand year ago in Ancient Greece. A thousand years before I, your writer, was even a glint in his daddy's eye.

I hope you don't mind that I kept that little piece of information from you until this point in the narrative. Now I sit by the river and see the same type of events unfold before my very eyes. Do you also see them, dear reader? Do you see them from your point in my future?

Watch them. Be ready! Now there; now gone.

[metal56]

Why can't we ever move on to the next level? Yes, that sentence is correct. No, Metal's general web-wide quest to delink time and tense is not correct.

The next stage may be that those who have had their say move on to another thread,

BTW, my imterest in this goes deeper than your silly comments suggest ("No, Metal's general web-wide quest to delink time and tense is not correct.":

Read well:

In the standard treatment (and in the standard folk theory), tense is characterized in
terms of a time line, a notion of event time, and a notion of speech time or speaker 'now'.
The Present tense indicates that the event time is equal to speech time, to the speaker's
'now'. The Past tense indicates that the event time precedes speech time, to the speaker's
'now'.
In discourse/narrative, the problems which tense behavior poses for such an
account are significant. The difficulties which oral and written discourse/narrative pose
for the simple time line model are most obvious and visible in the case of the Present tense
in Past tense narrative. What is Present tense in Past tense discourse/ narrative is often
not equal to the real-world author's ‘now’, to the time of the writing or production of the
text. In particular, the Present tense is often used to refer to events which belong to a past
‘now’ or to refer to a fictive author's ‘now’'.

http://cogsci.ucsd.edu/~faucon/CUTRER/ch7.pdf

[LarryLatham]

Why can't we ever move on to the next level? Yes, that sentence is correct. No, Metal's general web-wide quest to delink time and tense is not correct.

Why are you so sure about this, woodcutter? There is quite a lot of evidence to the contrary. Are you really prepared to discard all of it?

Perhaps the next level is where you prove M56 is "incorrect" in his quest to de-link time and tense. Want to give it a go? Here is as good a place as any.

Larry Latham

[fluffyhamster]

Would it upset you tremendously if a student to whom you had presented upmteen examples of the type heading this poll then chose to become an author in English (wow, what a teacher you were, metal!), but without ever using the 'now' ("there") as a native speaker might (...well also not! LOL!)?

[metal56]

Would it upset you tremendously if a student to whom you had presented upmteen examples of the type heading this poll then chose to become an author in English (wow, what a teacher you were, metal!), but without ever using the 'now' ("there") as a native speaker might (...well also not! LOL!)?

<but without ever using the 'now' ("there") as a native speaker might (...well also not! LOL!)? >


I dunno the answer. Most of my students can use the "now" just as well as most native speakers can - now they want to move on to wider vistas.

Next step... present deictic adverbs (and other such discourse markers) in past tense narratives. BTW, don't forget that most of my students are EAP and ESP babes.

[metal56]

Why can't we ever move on to the next level? Yes, that sentence is correct. No, Metal's general web-wide quest to delink time and tense is not correct.

Why are you so sure about this, woodcutter? There is quite a lot of evidence to the contrary. Are you really prepared to discard all of it?

Perhaps the next level is where you prove M56 is "incorrect" in his quest to de-link time and tense. Want to give it a go? Here is as good a place as any.

Larry Latham

Interesting that all I've ever said is that, in English, time and tense do not always match.

"De-link" sounds so extreme.

Well, if Woodpile is up for a beef, I'm ready and waitin'.

[Andrew Patterson]

Personally, I don't think the question of whether time is linked to tense or not is particularly helpful here. Everything can be understood in terms of what framework you are using to interpret the sentence.

Frameworks are wonderful things, I never try to interpret tense or modality without one.