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"1. I am a carnivore and a predator though sometimes I will scavenge. I live in the Arctic where I stay by myself most of my life. I am well camouflaged in the snow, though my skin is actually black to absorb the heat of the sun. I will kill and eat seals and walruses, but I will also eat carrion, such as a dead whale. I love water and am such a strong swimmer that I can swim miles at a time. Who am I?"

http://www.rogerwilliamsparkzoo.org/education/hunt.cfm

How would the removal of "will" affect the meaning of the above passage? Would the writer's intended effect still be fully appreciated?

It wouldn't affect so much, would it?

Sometimes it is just a matter of style, for what I see in the passage, what the author considers undeniable facts, they use the present simple (I am...I live) and what is still factual (the animal's eating habit) but let's say it is something we (from our point of view) can't predict or measure, then they prefer to turn those sentences into non-factual (using that modal that one famous one will paraphrase 'given my perception of the immediate situation, it is inevitably true that..' ), but again, if they used the present simple it wouldn't make much (if any) different to the regular reader.

Guess I could blow mine and my students' heads with this (mainly for the ones that will is the 'future simple'.)

José

Metamorfose wrote:It wouldn't affect so much, would it?

Sometimes it is just a matter of style, for what I see in the passage, what the author considers undeniable facts, they use the present simple (I am...I live) and what is still factual (the animal's eating habit) but let's say it is something we (from our point of view) can't predict or measure, then they prefer to turn those sentences into non-factual (using that modal that one famous one will paraphrase 'given my perception of the immediate situation, it is inevitably true that..' ), but again, if they used the present simple it wouldn't make much (if any) different to the regular reader.

Guess I could blow mine and my students' heads with this (mainly for the ones that will is the 'future simple'.)

José

I asked this because I've been a bit stunned these past few days by how many Americans do not know, or cannot see the need for, "will" for persistence, habit and generic qualities.

Those AE speakers keep saying that "will" is future and that's all. Scaryyy!!

They reject such wonderful British English items as:

If you will keep smoking, it's no wonder you feel so bad.

(Persistence/habit. General Time reference and emphatic)

When food is scarce, the biggest chick will kill and eat the smaller ones.

(Generic quality. General Time reference and emphatic)



And other such delights as:

metal56 wrote:


I asked this because I've been a bit stunned these past few days by how many Americans do not know, or cannot see the need for, "will" for persistence, habit and generic qualities.

Those AE speakers keep saying that "will" is future and that's all. Scaryyy!!

They reject such wonderful British English items as:

If you will keep smoking, it's no wonder you feel so bad.

(Persistence/habit. General Time reference and emphatic)

When food is scarce, the biggest chick will kill and eat the smaller ones.

(Generic quality. General Time reference and emphatic)



And other such delights as:

I don't know what other delights you had in mind, but the first one sounds very strange to my ears, and the second one sounds normal. So I scored 50%

--Lorikeet

Lorikeet wrote:

metal56 wrote:


I asked this because I've been a bit stunned these past few days by how many Americans do not know, or cannot see the need for, "will" for persistence, habit and generic qualities.

Those AE speakers keep saying that "will" is future and that's all. Scaryyy!!

They reject such wonderful British English items as:

If you will keep smoking, it's no wonder you feel so bad.

(Persistence/habit. General Time reference and emphatic)

When food is scarce, the biggest chick will kill and eat the smaller ones.

(Generic quality. General Time reference and emphatic)



And other such delights as:

I don't know what other delights you had in mind, but the first one sounds very strange to my ears, and the second one sounds normal. So I scored 50%

--Lorikeet

What's your variant of English?

metal56 wrote:
What's your variant of English?

Sorry--I was born in Detroit, and have lived in San Francisco for 36 years.

I was once disussing the use if will for present speculation (e.g. "Where's John?" "He'll be in the pub as usual.") with a Canadian colleague, whose response was "In canada we don't say that."

So, I suspect use of will varies across dialects. Those who look for one unifying meaning to cover all uses of modals should take note.

Lorikeet wrote:

metal56 wrote:
What's your variant of English?

Sorry--I was born in Detroit, and have lived in San Francisco for 36 years.

Interesting. Another AE speaker who isn't familiar with the emphatic or habitual, persistence and generic quality use of "will".

Puzzled.

lolwhites wrote:I was once disussing the use if will for present speculation (e.g. "Where's John?" "He'll be in the pub as usual.") with a Canadian colleague, whose response was "In canada we don't say that."

So, I suspect use of will varies across dialects. Those who look for one unifying meaning to cover all uses of modals should take note.

Those who look toward Merriam-Webster, learn.


1 -- used to express desire, choice, willingness, consent, or in negative constructions refusal <no one would take the job> <if we will all do our best> <will you please stop that racket>
2 -- used to express frequent, customary, or habitual action or natural tendency or disposition <will get angry over nothing> <will work one day and loaf the next>
3 -- used to express futurity <tomorrow morning I will wake up in this first-class hotel suite -- Tennessee Williams>
4 -- used to express capability or sufficiency <the back seat will hold three passengers>
5 -- used to express probability and often equivalent to the simple verb <that will be the milkman>
6 a -- used to express determination, insistence, persistence, or willfulness <I have made up my mind to go and go I will> b -- used to express inevitability <accidents will happen>
7 -- used to express a command, exhortation, or injunction <you will do as I say, at once>
intransitive senses : to have a wish or desire <whether we will or no>

Not a very good start to this thread, since the passage quoted has no need at all for "will", it is only a stylistic matter.

Are you suddenly in favour of Stephen Jonesian (orthodox!) multiple meanings, Metal, quoting the dictionary like that?

woodcutter wrote:Not a very good start to this thread, since the passage quoted has no need at all for "will", it is only a stylistic matter.

Are you suddenly in favour of Stephen Jonesian (orthodox!) multiple meanings, Metal, quoting the dictionary like that?

Suddenly? I've always done so.

What is the stylistic reason (if that is the reason) for using "will" there?

I dunno if you can reduce it to just one meaning, but I suspect that with some effort, some of the seven could be got rid of.

The "will" in the first passage sounds to me like the present tense version of "would" used for nostalgia "I would play in the woods in those days".

Since it is tagged on to sentences already describing habit, it is not necessary for that, the function of the word is to provide a kind of present tense imaginative whimsy. I cannot think of a use for this outside of tedious British parlour games.

metal56 wrote:

lolwhites wrote:I was once disussing the use if will for present speculation (e.g. "Where's John?" "He'll be in the pub as usual.") with a Canadian colleague, whose response was "In canada we don't say that."

So, I suspect use of will varies across dialects. Those who look for one unifying meaning to cover all uses of modals should take note.

Those who look toward Merriam-Webster, learn.


1 -- used to express desire, choice, willingness, consent, or in negative constructions refusal <no one would take the job> <if we will all do our best> <will you please stop that racket>
2 -- used to express frequent, customary, or habitual action or natural tendency or disposition <will get angry over nothing> <will work one day and loaf the next>
3 -- used to express futurity <tomorrow morning I will wake up in this first-class hotel suite -- Tennessee Williams>
4 -- used to express capability or sufficiency <the back seat will hold three passengers>
5 -- used to express probability and often equivalent to the simple verb <that will be the milkman>
6 a -- used to express determination, insistence, persistence, or willfulness <I have made up my mind to go and go I will> b -- used to express inevitability <accidents will happen>
7 -- used to express a command, exhortation, or injunction <you will do as I say, at once>
intransitive senses : to have a wish or desire <whether we will or no>

I personally would eschew the M-W catalog of uses, at least in the classroom. It tends to leave students (adult students, at least) with the notion that every word in English has a long list of "particular uses" which must be memorized. It reinforces their conviction that English is a very hard (almost impossible to master) language.

Instead, I prefer to suggest that will has a single function which never varies, though understanding it and applying it requires rather flexible interpretations in particular uses. It always means that the user is speculating, but there may be different reasons for his speculation.

In the case of the passage in M56's original post above, we are reminded that the passage was written by a human being. That human necessarily is speculating about the activities of a polar bear. Had it been written by the bear herself, I imagine the will would be absent, and the effect would be to simply make true statements with no need for speculation.

Larry Latham

As I said on another thread though, if "will" has a central function, it is highly likely to be the one identified by large groups of unpolluted Americans.

Otherwise, quote that dictionary.