Odd sentence?

lolwhites · Post by **lolwhites** » Sat Sep 10, 2005 11:37 am

Rather than getting one's knickers in a twist about "punctual verbs", doesn't one simply have to visualise the sentence to realise it's odd? All you have to do in this case is try and think of a real-world situation where it would be appropriate. Bottles don't suddenly appear on tables then break slowly enough for you to say "it's breaking", so one is very unlikely to say All of a sudden, there was a bottle breaking on the table. It's as simple as that, and it helps students to keep it that way. That's why, when a student asks "Can I say X" or "Is X correct", I often reply "When do you think you would say it?".

Incidentally, and on a related note, this is why I hate explanation-free lists of "verbs that are not (normally) used in the continuous".

JuanTwoThree · Post by **JuanTwoThree** » Sat Sep 10, 2005 2:01 pm

None of you seem to see it like I did: If you say "Somebody broke a bottle on my head" nobody (?) imagines that it was already perched there and then somebody broke it.

So I never had any trouble with either "All of a sudden, a bottle broke on the table" or "All of a sudden, there was a bottle breaking on the table." because in both cases the empty bottle was in somebody's hand and not already on the table. The continuous just slowed down the action, which is a common enough literary device.

What sheltered lives you all must lead. I don't know if you should get out more

or I should read less trash.

ontheway · Post by **ontheway** » Sat Sep 10, 2005 4:12 pm

When in doubt, write the next few lines:

"All of a sudden, there was a bottle breaking on the table."
- or -
"All of a sudden, a bottle broke on the table."

"I looked up. A huge red-faced lumberjack loomed over us. Shards of glass were tearing through the bearded man's throbbing fist. The woman my friend had been kissing for the last hour was his wife."

JuanTwoThree · Post by **JuanTwoThree** » Sat Sep 10, 2005 6:10 pm

Uncannily similar to the situation I had in mind.

lolwhites · Post by **lolwhites** » Sat Sep 10, 2005 6:59 pm

Great examples

It remains, I think, an unlikely example. though the point is that there is no grammar "rule" explicitly ruling the sentence out. We have to look to semantics to make sense of it.

LarryLatham · Post by **LarryLatham** » Sat Sep 10, 2005 7:42 pm

lolwhites wrote:Great examples

It remains, I think, an unlikely example. though the point is that there is no grammar "rule" explicitly ruling the sentence out. We have to look to semantics to make sense of it.

We have to look to context to make sense of it.

Larry Latham

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Sat Sep 10, 2005 7:50 pm

JuanTwoThree wrote:
So I never had any trouble with either "All of a sudden, a bottle broke on the table" or "All of a sudden, there was a bottle breaking on the table." because in both cases the empty bottle was in somebody's hand and not already on the table.

quote]

And I thought it was the soprano on the next table who shattered the bottle with her voice. LOL!

I saw opera singer. At least the trash I read must be a bit more refined than the one you happily consume.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Sat Sep 10, 2005 7:53 pm

ontheway wrote:When in doubt, write the next few lines:

"All of a sudden, there was a bottle breaking on the table."
- or -
"All of a sudden, a bottle broke on the table."

"I looked up. A huge red-faced lumberjack loomed over us. Shards of glass were tearing through the bearded man's throbbing fist. The woman my friend had been kissing for the last hour was his wife."

How does that contextualing account for the fact that the -ing form was chosen over the -ed form?

Even in your context, the "bottle breaking" still doesn't read well, IMO.

Stephen Jones · Post by **Stephen Jones** » Sat Sep 10, 2005 9:40 pm

When you are under severe stress, as tends to happen when a hefty Glaswegian is about to carve up your face with the neck of a bottle, time appears to slow down (read Gladwell's "Blink" for a detailed discussion). The continuous is admirably suited to convey this feeling.

That said, any idiot that uses this sentence in a transformation exercise deserves to experience the appropriate context first-hand.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Sat Sep 10, 2005 10:27 pm

Stephen Jones wrote:When you are under severe stress, as tends to happen when a hefty Glaswegian is about to carve up your face with the neck of a bottle, time appears to slow down (read Gladwell's "Blink" for a detailed discussion). The continuous is admirably suited to convey this feeling.

That said, any idiot that uses this sentence in a transformation exercise deserves to experience the appropriate context first-hand.

I agree with the "slowed down" reasoning, but isn't time-out-of-sync a rather odd/uncommon occurence? It's unusual, other wordly, and therefore the sentence is odd compared to our normal experiencing of time.

Tara B · Post by **Tara B** » Sun Sep 11, 2005 3:15 am

Tara B wrote:
I had a teacher in teaching school refer to a researcher who said that there were three parts to teaching grammar: form, meaning, and usage.

I can't remember who the researcher was. If I remember right, it was a woman. Does this sound familiar to anybody?

Yes it does. In my vocab it would be syntax, semantics and pragmatics.

Ah, thanks for putting me in the right register, metal. I would change one thing, though.
Syntax ≠ form.
Form = syntax + morphology (+ phonology).

The problem is that many people think that when they have learned (or taught) the form, they are done.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Sun Sep 11, 2005 12:01 pm

<Form = syntax + morphology (+ phonology>

I agree. Thanks for the addition.

Richard · Post by **Richard** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 6:54 pm

Maybe metal56 can tell us where the original set of exercises came from.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:24 pm

Richard wrote:Maybe metal56 can tell us where the original set of exercises came from.

I can do even better, I can post the post. It wa from a student on About.com forums and UE forums.

<<Hi, Below, you will find a number of sentences. This is a part 1 of a series of questions that I need to have answered because next week I'm taking an examination. Here's the tough part... Some of them can be rewritten into sentences beginning with "There..." but some of them cannot. What I want you to tell me is... why. Such sentences are called "There Insertion Structure" or "Locative Existential Structure". I couldn't find any rules about it, in my books. Anyway, this stuff comes from materials I was given by a lecturer in English Grammar.

It's a tough nut to crack... Allright, here it is :

I was told that these sentences are wrong :

2. All of a sudden a bottle broke on the table. (All of a sudden there broke a bottle on the table)

6. A dog was running in circles. (There was a dog running in circles)

9. A woman sang in the cold November night. (There sang a woman in the cold November night)

14. Some forty terrorists participated in the assault. (There participated some forty terrorists in the assaukt)

16. A ravishing naked girl bathed in the pool. (There bathed a ravishing naked girl in the pool)

18. Many people helped when the police arrived. (There helped many people when the police arrived)

Are these correct ? I think they're not. But why exactly ? What's the rule ?

And the next ones :

1. And suddenly a joyful thought floated into his mind. (And suddenly there loated a joyful thought into his mind)

I won't rewritte all of them, but you know what's the rule here.

3. Instead of co-operation, mutual distrust prevaield between the two groups.

4. A set of materials corresponded to each course of study.

5. The goddess Varuni emanated from the ocean.

7. A sense of responsibility and urgency exuded from all present. 8. A monster lurks in every woman.

10. Two men remained in the village. 11. A bright light streamed forth over all the people present.

12. Some three hours elapsed and his wife got back home not knowing at all what on earth had happened.

13. Only the lower sections of the wall survived.

15. A new bright vision dawned upon his mind.

17. A humongous palace of diamonds and crystal drifted in the distance.

19. A new complication developed quickly after the first was fixed.

So, these ones sound ok... I guess, but again - why ?

And the last ones :

1. In the middle of the kitchen there was killed a big pig.

2. There were stalked three women in this part of the town last year.

3. Of course, a lot of people complain because there are walked dirty dogs in front of their windows.

4. In this section of the readning room, there are read old manuscripts.

5. In the corner between wall and cealing, there was mounted a unique gargolye measuring about thirty cm.

Are they incorrect ? I think so... but I don't know why I need to know why some of the given examples are correct and some are incorrect. I was told that sometimes it has to do with verbs of "appearance" or "existence". Still, I don't get it. Thanks a lot, forum_mail ps. If I made ANY mistakes, please correct me >>