A starter for ten....
This is something Friday afternoon’s lesson made me think about. It has to do with the relationship between Must not / do not have to (need not); or more precisely between the contracted forms mustn’t/ needn’t (don’t have to).
It seems clear that must not implies prohibition, while do not have to suggests a lack of obligation. But is this distinction as clear when using the contracted form mustn’t? It occurs to me that many native speakers use mustn’t to communicate a lack of obligation as well as restriction/forbidding/prohibition, etc.:
You mustn’t push the red button - except in an emergency (restriction/prohibition)
(*)You mustn’t eat your peas if you don’t want to (lack of obligation)
What I’d like to know is how you feel about the second sentence. I realise it isn’t standard, but is it acceptable in your view? Thanks
Must not/mustn't
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JuanTwoThree
- Posts: 947
- Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 11:30 am
- Location: Spain
"It occurs to me that many native speakers use mustn’t to communicate a lack of obligation"
Do they? It's news to me.
I know that Google is not an exact science but if you are right then some of these "many" might have once or twice used a keyboard to write "You mustn't if you don't want to" . Well it gets exactly three hits, of which one is from a grammar worksheet, to be corrected. The other two are duplicates, so it gets exactly one real hit.
There are 66 hits for "you mustn't do it if you don't want to" and as far as I can see they are all the same ( not very) erotic story. I shan't go into details as I get the distinct impression that some of the regulars here lead very sheltered lives. Anyway they can google it for themselves, and probably will.
"he mustn't if he doesn't want to"- None ( and none if "do it" is included)
"I mustn't if I don't want to" -None (nor with the "do it")
In each case "don't/doesn't have/need to/needn't " get the expected hundreds and thousands of hits. "You don't have to if you don't want to" gets 12000 hits though some have different punctuation, it's true.
So it seems as if not even learners and speakers of non-standard English use mustn't in the way you describe, in the context I suggest, not via Internet at least. Whereas the usual problem with googling is that you do get hits from less than trustworthy sources. But none is none.
You might be right. But in the forms above it hasn't cropped up in forums, blogs, filmscripts, stories, letters, court transcriptions or anything else that can be googled.
Do they? It's news to me.
I know that Google is not an exact science but if you are right then some of these "many" might have once or twice used a keyboard to write "You mustn't if you don't want to" . Well it gets exactly three hits, of which one is from a grammar worksheet, to be corrected. The other two are duplicates, so it gets exactly one real hit.
There are 66 hits for "you mustn't do it if you don't want to" and as far as I can see they are all the same ( not very) erotic story. I shan't go into details as I get the distinct impression that some of the regulars here lead very sheltered lives. Anyway they can google it for themselves, and probably will.
"he mustn't if he doesn't want to"- None ( and none if "do it" is included)
"I mustn't if I don't want to" -None (nor with the "do it")
In each case "don't/doesn't have/need to/needn't " get the expected hundreds and thousands of hits. "You don't have to if you don't want to" gets 12000 hits though some have different punctuation, it's true.
So it seems as if not even learners and speakers of non-standard English use mustn't in the way you describe, in the context I suggest, not via Internet at least. Whereas the usual problem with googling is that you do get hits from less than trustworthy sources. But none is none.
You might be right. But in the forms above it hasn't cropped up in forums, blogs, filmscripts, stories, letters, court transcriptions or anything else that can be googled.
Thanks Juan,
very helpful reply, only.....
1. How do I google for these things?
2. What is blogging? I've seen this written often but have no idea!
Perhaps "many" was a little OTT, but I'm sure at least some native speakers do use this form; and not through ignorance. I have the feeling this is so, but, of course, there's nothing to support this to be found in the usual grammar/usage sources. So I thought I'd ask here in case anyone had had experience of this application.
very helpful reply, only.....
1. How do I google for these things?
2. What is blogging? I've seen this written often but have no idea!
Perhaps "many" was a little OTT, but I'm sure at least some native speakers do use this form; and not through ignorance. I have the feeling this is so, but, of course, there's nothing to support this to be found in the usual grammar/usage sources. So I thought I'd ask here in case anyone had had experience of this application.
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JuanTwoThree
- Posts: 947
- Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 11:30 am
- Location: Spain
The search engine google lets you put combinations of words between inverted commas (speechmarks) and only searches for that exact phrase. You can get exactly the same result from the advanced search using the option "with the exact phrase" if you prefer.
It's a very rough and ready system for seeing how many people have ever writtten a particular combination of words. You can even check British and American uses with a bit of ingenuity. Of course it doesn't "know" if the expression is always being used in the same way: "I can fish" gives hits for fish-canners. So it's no substitute for a concordancer, though a lot easier to use and get at.
Homework then. Go to www.google.com and put "what is a blog" with the " " and hit it. You can then compare the number of hits with "what is blogging" "what blogging is" or whatever. You'll get an answer to your second question.
To be honest I don't know if you can google blogs.
It's a very rough and ready system for seeing how many people have ever writtten a particular combination of words. You can even check British and American uses with a bit of ingenuity. Of course it doesn't "know" if the expression is always being used in the same way: "I can fish" gives hits for fish-canners. So it's no substitute for a concordancer, though a lot easier to use and get at.
Homework then. Go to www.google.com and put "what is a blog" with the " " and hit it. You can then compare the number of hits with "what is blogging" "what blogging is" or whatever. You'll get an answer to your second question.
To be honest I don't know if you can google blogs.
I would take you mustn't ... if you don't want to to go further than a simple lack of obligation:
You don't have to ... if you don't want to = don't feel obliged
You mustn't ... if you don't want to = don't do it unless you want to
The second construction is probably less likely to crop up but certainly not impossible.
You don't have to ... if you don't want to = don't feel obliged
You mustn't ... if you don't want to = don't do it unless you want to
The second construction is probably less likely to crop up but certainly not impossible.