Help Please: 'ask forgiveness', or ask for forgiveness'

[Duttoncar]

I've been asked the above (is it correct to 'ask forgiveness' or 'ask for forgiveness'), and I'm in trouble giving a good grammatical explanation.

Please help me.

Thanks

[leochang]

I've been asked the above (is it correct to 'ask forgiveness' or 'ask for forgiveness'), and I'm in trouble giving a good grammatical explanation.

Please help me.

Thanks

I would say, "ask for forgiveness."

Same way as I say, "I'll ask for some water."

Or maybe you have heard of the expression "beg for mercy."

[Duttoncar]

Thanks for reply.

I said the same, but another student did some research on Internet, and came back with hundreds of postings from sites, including US newspapers expressing 'ask forgiveness'.

Here my problem starts. As far as I'm concerned, it should be:

Ask for forgiveness; - the general statement.

Ask forgiveness for my sins; - ask forgiveness for something particular.

My problem is I cannot explain it grammatically.

[JuanTwoThree]

It's more the ugliness of "ask for forgiveness for" (forforfor) that drops the first "for", if you ask me. Still, there are 289,000 hits for "ask forgiveness" and not all are followed by "for" though "ask forgiveness for" googles far more frequently than "ask for forgiveness for". Perhaps two "fors" grate enough for many people.

That apart I don't see anything wrong with "Police ask help in murder case" or "ask assistance".

In fact the "for" seems plain odd in "All I ask is ..........."

To explain everything grammatically is difficult. Just put a judicious "usually" in every rule that you state: "ask is followed by for, usually"

[dom64]

I would say 'ask for' as in ask for + noun although the ask forgiveness form could be idiomatic.

However, I wonder firstly out of simple interest, if there is a difference in usage between the US and British or Aussie usages and secondly does it really matter as both of them are grammatical and not really worth dwelling on in a classroom context.

[Duttoncar]

Thanks for your reply.

Maybe there is a difference in usage between the various countries. Certainly when I looked it up on the Internet, the majority of 'ask forgiveness') were, or seemed to be, American.

I am not the best grammar teacher in the world. I specialise in Business English, and mix it with themed courses, such as presentation skills.

In my 'natural speaking' guise, I thought that;

Q; You done them wrong; what do you want to do? A: Ask for forgiveness
Q: What are you doing? A: Asking forgiveness for my crime

Therefore, the best way I can put it is that where the sentence can be finished with forgiveness, then it should be 'for'. When the reason for asking forgiveness follows (e.g. 'my crime'), then the 'for' should follow (forgiveness).

I am sure that this is the practical, normal usage, but cannot explain it, apart from that the standard for + noun is replaced with forgiveness because of the clash of 'fors'.

It probably doesn't matter; it's probably a matter of personal ego or pride in wanting to be able to explain it.

[dom64]

I go with your final point about it being a matter of pride to explain however, when do the words ask and forgiveness ever get used by business folk?