Do you agree?

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 1:04 am

Fajita (1996) says that 1) is unaccusative/ergative and 2) is a middle construction:

1) The suitcase easily opens up. (No Agent)

2) The suitcase opens up easily. (Implied Agent)

Do you agree?

JuanTwoThree · Post by **JuanTwoThree** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 10:05 am

(like a moth to a flame)

I spotted that and

1 The boat quickly sinks

vs

2 The boat sinks quickly

while I was google.scholaring around. Here:

http://people.umass.edu/roeper/online_p ... HOUT00.pdf

and here:

http://people.umass.edu/roeper/online_p ... mitwpl.pdf

It's an interesting distinction, isn't it?

But it only really works with verbs that just happen: boats do sink sometimes and suitcases open for no apparent reason. But:

1 The bread slowly bakes

2 The bread bakes slowly

Given that bread never spontaneously bakes then there doesn't seem to be much difference .

Or "bake" as a metaphor where i suppose that the agent is some heat-source:

"The fields bake in the hot sun"

What difference is made by the positioning of say "hazily" in the above?

JuanTwoThree · Post by **JuanTwoThree** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 10:15 am

On second thoughts I may be wrong. Is it only the knowledge that I bring to bear about bread and sunbaked fields that makes me assert that there is no difference?

The bread slowly bakes (mental picture of a loaf baking in isolation)

The bread bakes slowly (mental picture of a loaf baking AND the amount of heat)

It's an elusive little beggar this difference, if there is one. It comes and it goes.

Stephen Jones · Post by **Stephen Jones** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 10:41 am

In the original post I cannot see how the placing of 'easily' makes any difference whatsoever.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 11:16 am

Stephen Jones wrote:In the original post I cannot see how the placing of 'easily' makes any difference whatsoever.

I can.

Stephen Jones · Post by **Stephen Jones** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 12:19 pm

I can.

Perhaps you could deign to explain to us.

I would use the second and not the first if I was talking about a design feature for the suitcase, but I'm stumped as to what you mean by differences of implied agent and no-implied agent.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 12:53 pm

Stephen Jones wrote:
I can.
Perhaps you could deign to explain to us.

I would use the second and not the first if I was talking about a design feature for the suitcase, but I'm stumped as to what you mean by differences of implied agent and no-implied agent.

1) The suitcase easily opens up. (No Agent) = The suitcase has a tendency to come open all by itself. Design fault.

2) The suitcase opens up easily. (Implied Agent) = The suitcase can be opened, by anyone, without too much difficulty. Design benefit.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 1:00 pm

JuanTwoThree wrote:

1 The boat quickly sinks

vs

2 The boat sinks quickly

It's an interesting distinction, isn't it?
It is. One is ergative and the other a middle construction, IMO.

But it only really works with verbs that just happen: boats do sink sometimes and suitcases open for no apparent reason. But:

1 The bread slowly bakes

2 The bread bakes slowly

Given that bread never spontaneously bakes then there doesn't seem to be much difference .

Or "bake" as a metaphor where i suppose that the agent is some heat-source:

"The fields bake in the hot sun"

What difference is made by the positioning of say "hazily" in the above?[/
Yes, I think that there, it's not so much the verb that controls things, it's more the noun "bread".

Sitting in the noonday sun, he baked.

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 4:33 pm

The suitcase opens up too easily/keeps opening, has a tendancy to open during transit etc.

The suitcase opens up easily/smoothly/effortlessly (enough) etc - buy it now!

Without the context being spelled out, I'm still not sure that 'The suitcase easily opens up' signals much in and by itself.

Andrew Patterson · Post by **Andrew Patterson** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 6:33 pm

FH wrote:

The suitcase opens up too easily/keeps opening, has a tendancy to open during transit etc.

And I thought it was the baggage handlers. Suitcases open all too easiliy especially when there's food inside. Only carry food in your hand luggage, they'll even take tinned stuff.

btw they have really good tinned fish in where I am (stuff you can't get in Britain) and I usually bring my dad some but it stays firmly in my hand luggage.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 3:06 am

What difference is made by the positioning of say "hazily" in the above?

The bag hazily opens.

The bag opens hazily.

?? Is that what you meant?

JuanTwoThree · Post by **JuanTwoThree** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 9:34 am

Only the fields:

The fields hazily bake under the hot sun.

The fields bake hazily under the hot sun.

Not much in it , innit?

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 10:42 am

JuanTwoThree wrote:Only the fields:

The fields hazily bake under the hot sun.

The fields bake hazily under the hot sun.

Not much in it , innit?

That's true, but there we see the Agent (the sun).

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 10:40 am

metal56 wrote:
What difference is made by the positioning of say "hazily" in the above?
The bag hazily opens.

The bag opens hazily.

?? Is that what you meant?

Anyone ever heard of things opening hazily? Not exactly the sharpest tool in the box, is he, this metal56 fellah! (Unquestionably a t**l, though).

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 1:15 pm

fluffyhamster wrote:
Anyone ever heard of things opening hazily? Not exactly the sharpest tool in the box, is he, this metal56 fellah! (Unquestionably a t**l, though).

Less sharp are those that do not see a piss-take when it jumps out at them. Go on with your hazy thoughts.