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Do you agree?
Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 1:04 am
by metal56
Fajita (1996) says that 1) is unaccusative/ergative and 2) is a middle construction:
1) The suitcase easily opens up. (No Agent)
2) The suitcase opens up easily. (Implied Agent)
Do you agree?
Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 10:05 am
by JuanTwoThree
(like a moth to a flame)
I spotted that and
1 The boat quickly sinks
vs
2 The boat sinks quickly
while I was google.scholaring around. Here:
http://people.umass.edu/roeper/online_p ... HOUT00.pdf
and here:
http://people.umass.edu/roeper/online_p ... mitwpl.pdf
It's an interesting distinction, isn't it?
But it only really works with verbs that just happen: boats do sink sometimes and suitcases open for no apparent reason. But:
1 The bread slowly bakes
2 The bread bakes slowly
Given that bread never spontaneously bakes then there doesn't seem to be much difference .
Or "bake" as a metaphor where i suppose that the agent is some heat-source:
"The fields bake in the hot sun"
What difference is made by the positioning of say "hazily" in the above?
Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 10:15 am
by JuanTwoThree
On second thoughts I may be wrong. Is it only the knowledge that I bring to bear about bread and sunbaked fields that makes me assert that there is no difference?
The bread slowly bakes (mental picture of a loaf baking in isolation)
The bread bakes slowly (mental picture of a loaf baking AND the amount of heat)
It's an elusive little beggar this difference, if there is one. It comes and it goes.
Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 10:41 am
by Stephen Jones
In the original post I cannot see how the placing of 'easily' makes any difference whatsoever.
Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 11:16 am
by metal56
Stephen Jones wrote:In the original post I cannot see how the placing of 'easily' makes any difference whatsoever.
I can.
Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 12:19 pm
by Stephen Jones
I can.
Perhaps you could deign to explain to us.
I would use the second and not the first if I was talking about a design feature for the suitcase, but I'm stumped as to what you mean by differences of implied agent and no-implied agent.
Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 12:53 pm
by metal56
Stephen Jones wrote:I can.
Perhaps you could deign to explain to us.
I would use the second and not the first if I was talking about a design feature for the suitcase, but I'm stumped as to what you mean by differences of implied agent and no-implied agent.
1) The suitcase easily opens up. (No Agent) = The suitcase has a tendency to come open all by itself. Design fault.
2) The suitcase opens up easily. (Implied Agent) = The suitcase can be opened, by anyone, without too much difficulty. Design benefit.
Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 1:00 pm
by metal56
JuanTwoThree wrote:
1 The boat quickly sinks
vs
2 The boat sinks quickly
It's an interesting distinction, isn't it?
It is. One is ergative and the other a middle construction, IMO.
But it only really works with verbs that just happen: boats do sink sometimes and suitcases open for no apparent reason. But:
1 The bread slowly bakes
2 The bread bakes slowly
Given that bread never spontaneously bakes then there doesn't seem to be much difference .
Or "bake" as a metaphor where i suppose that the agent is some heat-source:
"The fields bake in the hot sun"
What difference is made by the positioning of say "hazily" in the above?[/
Yes, I think that there, it's not so much the verb that controls things, it's more the noun "bread".
Sitting in the noonday sun, he baked.
Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 4:33 pm
by fluffyhamster
The suitcase opens up too easily/keeps opening, has a tendancy to open during transit etc.
The suitcase opens up easily/smoothly/effortlessly (enough) etc - buy it now!
Without the context being spelled out, I'm still not sure that 'The suitcase easily opens up' signals much in and by itself.
Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 6:33 pm
by Andrew Patterson
FH wrote:
The suitcase opens up too easily/keeps opening, has a tendancy to open during transit etc.
And I thought it was the baggage handlers. Suitcases open all too easiliy especially when there's food inside. Only carry food in your hand luggage, they'll even take tinned stuff.
btw they have really good tinned fish in where I am (stuff you can't get in Britain) and I usually bring my dad some but it stays firmly in my hand luggage.
Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 3:06 am
by metal56
What difference is made by the positioning of say "hazily" in the above?
The bag hazily opens.
The bag opens hazily.
?? Is that what you meant?
Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 9:34 am
by JuanTwoThree
Only the fields:
The fields hazily bake under the hot sun.
The fields bake hazily under the hot sun.
Not much in it , innit?
Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 10:42 am
by metal56
JuanTwoThree wrote:Only the fields:
The fields hazily bake under the hot sun.
The fields bake hazily under the hot sun.
Not much in it , innit?
That's true, but there we see the Agent (the sun).
Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 10:40 am
by fluffyhamster
metal56 wrote:What difference is made by the positioning of say "hazily" in the above?
The bag hazily opens.
The bag opens hazily.
?? Is that what you meant?
Anyone ever heard of things
opening hazily? Not exactly the sharpest tool in the box, is he, this metal56 fellah! (Unquestionably a t**l, though).
Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 1:15 pm
by metal56
fluffyhamster wrote:
Anyone ever heard of things opening hazily? Not exactly the sharpest tool in the box, is he, this metal56 fellah! (Unquestionably a t**l, though).
Less sharp are those that do not see a piss-take when it jumps out at them. Go on with your hazy thoughts.