Fetus as "doer"?

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 7:10 am

Can we say "the baby/fetus miscarried/aborted"?

Lorikeet · Post by **Lorikeet** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 8:15 am

Uh...maybe you can, but I can't.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 8:33 am

Lorikeet wrote:Uh...maybe you can, but I can't.

Mm. How about here?

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/pd ... 99.00034.x

Top of column 2 on page one: "unfortunately the fetus miscarried."

And here:

The baby’s size will depend on the length of time the baby continued to grow and any medical condition of the baby. The appearance of the baby may depend on any time lapse between death and when the baby miscarried, a particular medical condition and/or the manner of delivery. However, a fully developed, normal baby that miscarries at twelve weeks is approximately 7-9 cms in length while at sixteen weeks would be approximately 16-18 cm long (or about the size of an adult’s hand).

http://bellybelly.com.au/articles/pregn ... iscarriage

Lorikeet · Post by **Lorikeet** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 9:43 pm

I see your examples. They sound strange to me. I can only answer with my own personal perceptions. It's possible that language is used in the medical field or in different sorts of English. I've never heard it before.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 1:48 am

Lorikeet wrote:I see your examples. They sound strange to me. I can only answer with my own personal perceptions. It's possible that language is used in the medical field or in different sorts of English. I've never heard it before.

Here are more:

"The woman survived, but the fetus aborted."

www.mazeministry.com/incorrect/davis.htm

"They say they vaccinated on day X and the fetus aborted on day Y."

www.vet.utk.edu/news/wnv/wnv_birthprobs.shtml

When Ricky's wife carried a fetus twenty weeks in her womb, the fetus aborted early and what did the Senator and his wife do with the XXXX?

www.iidb.org/vbb/archive/index.php

............

Interesting how it is impossible to find examples using "the child aborted" - with the same meaning as in those links.

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 11:53 am

Interesting how it is impossible to find examples using "the child aborted" - with the same meaning as in those links.

How about 'unborn child'?

The reason I ask is because I find all this absolutely fascinating, as I'm sure my students will when I present them with my surprise ten-week masterclass on 'Quasiumerunergatives'.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 1:56 pm

fluffyhamster wrote:
The reason I ask is because I find all this absolutely fascinating, as I'm sure my students will when I present them with my surprise ten-week masterclass on 'Quasiumerunergatives'.

You've really got it bad, this "I come here only to get material for my classes" thing. Live a little.

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:31 am

You've really got it bad, this "I come here only to get material for my classes" thing. Live a little.

Actually, the whole issue of what to teach is a bit academic now in every sense, 'cos the entire coachload of aforementioned students killed tragically, victims of a big traffic accident.

It just goes to show you, yes indeed, we should all 'live a little' and put away our dusty tomes and battered keyboards every once in awhile, in order to better appreciate the simpler things and pleasures in life.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:37 am

fluffyhamster wrote:
It just goes to show you, yes indeed, we should all 'live a little' and put away our dusty tomes and battered keyboards every once in awhile, in order to better appreciate the simpler things and pleasures in life.

You and simpler things make good bedfellows.

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 6:32 am

I'm more than capable of understanding what 'The foetus aborted' means. Probably most students too, once they've met examples like 'Suddenly, the door opened' (from a ghost story maybe). Nobody is saying it isn't a possibility in English, as the examples you've posted show.

The "issue" I think is rather, why should that example (or ones about nobody's suitcase in particular, or people "executing" easily etc) concern our students? If they don't really concern our students, why then should they concern us greatly either?

If we're going to study ergatives in class, let's at least try to make the examples more relevant rather than getting our knickers in a twist over especially the more marginal ones (unclear or ambiguous or contrived or distasteful/sensitive/cans-of-worms or whatever) - I mean, we aren't teaching our students about the syntax/semantics interface or whatever of theoretical linguistics, so there's really no need to develop anyone's intuition (often more opinion than anything, when we force ourselves to consider such examples only, as if alternative (re)phrasings weren't possible by any halfway competent speaker) to such a rarefied degree. (I'm obviously talking about the range of examples you've posted across several threads here, rather than just the fetus ones - the others seem somewhat contrived, as the responses from other forum members have implied if not shown).

Taking a "classroom" perspective on this, imagine presenting the fetus examples rather than e.g. a nice enjoyable ghost story or two (or maybe I'll present both contexts eh, that'll really get the students drooling).

Suddenly, female student A starts sobbing. The class grinds to a halt, and it slowly transpires that she had a miscarriage/?her baby or foetus miscarried/??her baby or foetus aborted, sometime prior to starting the course, and she isn't over it yet (who would be?), especially when she's reminded of the tragedy.

Anyway, being the plucky girl we've taught her to be, she pulls herself together and is composed enough to take note of our parting advice just as the class ends: "Say 1) 'I had a miscarriage' or 2) 'My baby miscarried/aborted', but don't say 'I had an abortion'. The reason for saying 2) might possibly be that you want to distance yourself from the event somehow - what do you think?".

What I'm saying is, these are incredibly personal issues that I really shouldn't be making light of at all, but then, I wouldn't have to if you could ever make it clear if you are posting JUST as a linguist, or as a teacher.

Of course, there doesn't need to be a clear division between the two roles, but seeing as this is an Applied Linguistics forum then you'll perhaps forgive my continual questioning of the relevance of half of what you post. You can say that what I am saying is ridiculous and that you obviously meant and do this and not that, but I really don't think you ever make it clear just when you think the teachers amongst us should or shouldn't be sitting up and taking note (correct me though if it's just a peculiar hobby or obssession of yours, things such as "abortive ergatives").

I believe we might possibly consider teaching the difference between 'have a miscarriage' and 'have an abortion' because they are as different as chalk and cheese (especially to those listeners who might have issues with abortion), but whether the student(s) themselves will actually want to cover those things let alone ever say (admit?) to them, who can say? Me, I'd relegate them to a reader/examples bank (including, incidentally, some ergatives) along with an indication of which could and couldn't be used in one's own speech, about oneself, as opposed to being purely from and in (typical of) writing (if this wasn't obvious enough to the students); and if a student approached me privately with a query about an example they'd read, only then would I address the (grammar?) topic.

Basically, I am mainly interested in teaching English as it is spoken, and then only what is generally appropriate (unless among close friends, which a good course should make it possible to become, whilst at the same time avoiding/making it very clear by default exactly what subjects are sensitive), but I appreciate that reading is a valuable way of acquiring new vocabulary and improving generally (it's just, the division between what one reads and whether it is ever said that way always has to be maintained in the back of the student's mind).

A simple enough argument, that you will doubtless say didn't need saying, metal, but I still think it's good that it's been said, just to clear the air and all that.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 8:09 am

fluffyhamster wrote:
The "issue" I think is rather, why should that example (or ones about nobody's suitcase in particular, or people "executing" easily etc) concern our students? If they don't really concern our students, why then should they concern us greatly either?
You shouldn't tax or concern yourself with them. I can send you a nice, calm copy of Headway Intermediate. That'll keep you busy for years.

Taking a "classroom" perspective on this
The only one you can take.

Suddenly, female student A starts sobbing. The class grinds to a halt, and it slowly transpires that she had a miscarriage/?her baby or foetus miscarried/??her baby or foetus aborted, sometime prior to starting the course, and she isn't over it yet (who would be?), especially when she's reminded of the tragedy.
Imagine first, a wider range of students that your continually narrow desription of such "a group". Imagine working daily with medical students - as I do. In fact try to imagine something bigger than the small world of Fluff as teacher and nice little ghost stories.

A simple enough argument, that you will doubtless say didn't need saying, metal, but I still think it's good that it's been said, just to clear the air and all that.

It has been said a thousand times - normally directed to new or newer ESL teachers. On the ground, and a few years down the line, it is better to take a case-by-case approach to what is or is not appropriate in class. Teachers need to be aware of what each student or group needs and is willing, to talk about.

Here in Spain, for example, there are not as many "hangups" as there might be in some other countries regarding appropriate topics.

Feel your way. Be sensitive. Be adult. Be human.

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 8:47 am

It's clear that the examples are from medicine, and attested, so there's obviously a need for them in ESP. What was your point/query in posting them then, exactly? My points about their questionable relevance to ESL generally still stand, it would therefore seem.

Some students (the more vocal) might be willing to "discuss" these sorts of matters, but not all students, and certainly not every teacher, would feel so comfortable about it. (I mean, it's not like we ask all our female students 'Have you ever had an abortion?' and 'Would you be willing to discuss it?' in pre-course questionnaires).

And you still haven't addressed my reservations regarding the other examples you've posted on related (ergative) threads.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:43 am

fluffyhamster wrote:
My points about their questionable relevance to ESL generally still stand, it would therefore seem.
You questioned the relevance for teachers on this site. Is this an ESL ONLY site?

Some students (the more vocal) might be willing to "discuss" these sorts of matters, but not all students, and certainly not every teacher, would feel so comfortable about it.
Again you state the obvious so strongly that it becomes the banal.

And you still haven't addressed my reservations regarding the other examples you've posted on related (ergative) threads.
If you see no relevance for you in those threads, why not spend more time in other threads? It seems you are doing the usual Fluffy thing of trying to prevent people posting things that are not to your liking and not within your remit of suitable topics.

I think it's known as censoring.

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 11:37 am

No, this isn't only an ESL site, but then it also isn't only an ESP (EMP) site with teachers frantically logging in just to be presented with a few perhaps to them run-of-the-mill examples about aborting fetuses.

You're hardly one yourself to talk about (not) 'trying to prevent people posting things that are not to your liking and not within your remit of suitable topics' (I'm sure quite a few forum members will know exactly which threads I'm on about here).

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:15 pm

fluffyhamster wrote:No, this isn't only an ESL site, but then it also isn't only an ESP (EMP) site with teachers frantically logging in just to be presented with a few perhaps to them run-of-the-mill examples about aborting fetuses.

You're hardly one yourself to talk about (not) 'trying to prevent people posting things that are not to your liking and not within your remit of suitable topics' (I'm sure quite a few forum members will know exactly which threads I'm on about here).

LOL! My comments about your posts are totally different to yours about mine. You post long, badly written, overly-parenthetic tosh. It takes a lot of time and effort to figure out just what it is you are trying to say.

This is a fine example of what I complain about:

to be presented with a few perhaps to them run-of-the-mill examples about aborting fetuses.

Do you know how to punctuate, "teacher"?

What you want is "ESL (EFluffL) in a vacuum". You dream that ESL stands alone, with no influence from other areas of language learning and no input from anything more than your simplified view of Applied Linguistics.