help!!!

liqi · Post by **liqi** » Fri May 05, 2006 2:15 pm

Here are two sentences. How can I complete them and why in such way?
1. Most of the things he loves were included _____ the list.
A. in B. on
2. ________ the hot weather, he couldn't sleep indoors.
A. Because of B. For

Thanks!!!!

abufletcher · Post by **abufletcher** » Fri May 05, 2006 3:56 pm

#1: Both

#2: Because of

Why? Just because. No reason whatsoever. It's just the way we say it. And that's all the reason there is.

lolwhites · Post by **lolwhites** » Fri May 05, 2006 4:45 pm

Prepositions are a nightmare whatever language you're learning, but I don't think it's totally random. It reminds me of when a student asked me whether it was better to say in the station or at the station; my reply was both are fine because you can think of the station as a building or as a point on a map, so they're both appropriate. I leave it up to you to think why on and in are both fine with the list.

I think the semantic view of grammar and abu's corpus/use based view are actually pretty much the same thing; isn't "meaning" really much the same as "how the term is generally used"?

wilderson · Post by **wilderson** » Fri May 05, 2006 8:59 pm

For hot weather, I would do anything; I would move to ________.

Because of the hot weather, I shat myself.

abufletcher · Post by **abufletcher** » Fri May 05, 2006 10:11 pm

lolwhites wrote:I think the semantic view of grammar and abu's corpus/use based view are actually pretty much the same thing; isn't "meaning" really much the same as "how the term is generally used"?

Except that in my view individual words -- particularly prepositions -- have little if any individual semantic meaning. Thus the relevant unit of meaning here is "on the list" and/or "in the list" which though they have a slightly different "flavor" are essentially the same thing.

lolwhites · Post by **lolwhites** » Fri May 05, 2006 10:53 pm

Physically they are the same thing, the (minimal) difference lies, I think, in speaker emphasis/conceptualisation. Sometimes speakers can use different prepositions to great effect e.g. He doesn't talk to you, he talks at you.

abufletcher · Post by **abufletcher** » Sat May 06, 2006 11:41 am

lolwhites wrote:He doesn't talk to you, he talks at you.

Interesting example in that the entire thing has a ("chunky") catchphrase-like quality. Which is to say, that if someone were to say (in conversation) "He doesn't talk TO you..." next speakers (talk-recipients) would probably NOT hear this talk as complete but would instead wait for the speaker to produce the second half of this rhetorical couplet.

So once again the meaning lies more with the whole than the parts.

lolwhites · Post by **lolwhites** » Sat May 06, 2006 12:24 pm

The whole may be greater than the sum of the parts, but try swapping the prepositions and see if it doesn't change the meaning of the utterance pretty drastically.

Stephen Jones · Post by **Stephen Jones** » Sun May 07, 2006 8:31 pm

Except that in my view individual words -- particularly prepositions -- have little if any individual semantic meaning.

Must be contagious. I find whole paragraphs of yours to have little if any individual semantic meaning.

abufletcher · Post by **abufletcher** » Mon May 08, 2006 7:19 am

I'm just hoping that if I repeat myself endlessly someone just might get a clue that there just might be some other way to look at things.

liqi · Post by **liqi** » Mon May 08, 2006 8:57 pm

Thanks for all your discussion.
But the two sentences are taken from "New Concept English (Book II)", and the keys are 1. "in"; 2. "because of". I must explain to the students why here we can't say:
"Most of the things he loves were included on the list. "
and "For the hot weather,he couldn't sleep indoors".
In addition, my students are the middle-school students in China.
Thanks a lot again![/u]

abufletcher · Post by **abufletcher** » Tue May 09, 2006 1:54 am

"Most of the things he loves were included on the list. "

This is 100% completely perfect English. So is "in the list." My own personal preference would, in fact, be "on the list." You have to be willing to admit this to your students. Books are occasionally wrong.

"For the hot weather,he couldn't sleep indoors".

This one sounds entirely incorrect. I'm not sure how you'd go about explaining WHY it's wrong. I mean how would you "explain" that "by" would be wrong here too? The word "for" is sometimes used to introduce cause but I would consider this to be archaic language -- or at the very least overly literary.

"The pupil failed the test, for he was woefully unprepared."

By the way, even with this archaic use of "for" I don't think the clauses can be reversed so that the "for-clause" comes first:

**For he was woefully unprepared, the pupil failed the test.

liqi · Post by **liqi** » Tue May 09, 2006 9:05 pm

Thank you very much!