Teacher Discussion Forums

Would you say that this is an example of the be going to construction?

Depends on whether you mean She is falling asleep or She plans to sleep. Why is Contextman never there when you need him?

Not the normal one and perhaps even not the other one. In the first place there's a difference between:

"What's she going to do this afternoon?" " She's going to sleep"

(going to "future" as normally understood) and

"Look, she's going to sleep" (action in progress)

Going one step further, it might not even be "to sleep" as infinitive.
I think it's like "I'm going to bed" or "Daddy is going to work" (the place) . Is there a way of showing that "She's going to sleep" is or is not a preposition followed by a noun?

What about "This'll put you to sleep"? Is that the same as "Put the slaves to work!" ? Unless that "work" is a noun too. It is "Put them to death" not "to die".

Well, Contextman gets pelted with kryptonite-soaked cabbages (deadlier than the strongest kimchi) whenever he bursts into English classrooms in Japan: and in the classroom in question, the intended meaning was "undoubtedly" 'She plans to sleep' (if for no other reason than the grammar "focus" for that lesson was be going to).

As you guys are saying, we could have 'She is falling asleep/nodding off (even as we speak. Look! She's so tired)', or 'She is going to (have a) sleep/nap/quick kip (sooner rather than later)', or 'She going to bed (it's getting late)', or...

Basically, it would be nice if the (specific) lexis reflected what people usually say at a certain time of day (or night) i.e. reflected the customary organization of sleeping habits - 'She is going to sleep' is just so wishy-washy, it's almost worthless (and bound to raise a red flag with anyone more competent in English); I imagine that the chosen example reflects not so much a deliberate "blurring" to achieve a wider coverage of "context(s)", but rather a distinct lack of awareness, thought or care.

fluffyhamster wrote: Basically, it would be nice if the (specific) lexis reflected what people usually say at a certain time of day (or night) i.e. reflected the customary organization of sleeping habits - 'She is going to sleep' is just so wishy-washy, it's almost worthless (and bound to raise a red flag with anyone more competent in English); I imagine that the chosen example reflects not so much a deliberate "blurring" to achieve a wider coverage of "context(s)", but rather a distinct lack of awareness, thought or care.

Are you saying that you don't use the expression "she/he is going to sleep"?

I wouldn't think of this sentence in a 'be going to' or any other grammar lesson. I might include it in a lesson on functional english (expressions related to sleep contexts)

metal56 wrote:Are you saying that you don't use the expression "she/he is going to sleep"?

Didn't the "alternative" exponents that I suggested make clear what I (believe I) would instead say?

Hmm, so are you saying that 'She is going to sleep' would serve as a prime example of be going to, for "the average ESL class"?

Have you tried googling 'she/he is going to sleep', metal? There don't appear to be that many isolated sentences like that floating around (my point being - indeed, was before - that more context is needed...which is precisely why the users whose usage appear on Google searches aren't producing stuff like 'She is going to sleep.' (Note the capital letter and full stop there)).

Hi fluffy

If I ask my students to produce sentences using a particular verb tense, grammar point, etc., I usually give them a minimum number of words that must be used in their examples. I do this in an effort to avoid just the sort of "wishy-washy-ness" you're talking about.

Creating a five-word sentence using "be going to" doesn't illustrate much in the way of understanding, does it? I mean, that's like creating a two-word sentence to illustrate the meaning and usage of the word "sleep". That really isn't much different:
"I sleep." What does that prove? Absolutely nothing with regard to comprehension. As you say, that's just a wishy-washy, almost worthless sentence.

Amy

Hi Amy! Seems at least us two are on the same wavelength here!

Actually, the sentence in question appeared in the second hit I got on Google (a website for Japanese learners or teachers of English, it seems); and the first hit concerns my questioning of the exact same sentence. I'm assuming that this is all more than coincidental - that the Japanese teacher of English had been told of or himself hit upon that very website and thought (for some reason) that he'd struck gold.

It's more than a little ironic that this teacher settled for such a wishy-washy example when a simple Google search would have unearthed many more (and much better) examples (I doubt if the teacher Googled for 'She is going to sleep' or even 'going to' first, because he'd then have the wide range of examples he was presumably looking for...or maybe he did Google away but baulked at any (real) example that looked "too long" for his to be ever-"incapable" students); as you say, Amy, in selecting too simple examples, we end up in a position where our students aren't really meeting or themselves saying very much, and this (in Japan, continual) underplaying of the complexity of real English does them no favours in the long run. (Perhaps I should say "complexity" there, put it in scare quotes, because the real sentences aren't usually that ambiguous, are they).

As well as it being ironic, I find it somewhat perverse that here is an example of ambiguity being deliberately introduced into a classroom for no discernible functional reason (I mean, it's not as if it's e.g. double entendres that we're dealing with here). It's sort of reminiscent of the ludicrous invented sentences so beloved by generative grammarians: things start going awry without sufficient context.

It's not just me who questioned the sentence: another Japanese teacher of English, this time one with excellent English and a lot of experience, commented that it didn't chime with her intuitions either (when we glanced at each other quizzically shortly after the example had been introduced into the lesson by the other JTE).

That's one of the (few?) advantages of team teaching (or at least working closely alongside non-native teachers e.g. in the same institute): that the more fluent/bilingual of them can confirm, complement (whatever's the right word) a native speaker's intuitions.

I'm not saying that I expect a non-native teacher to slavishly ape every last feature of my (the?) idiom, but if they aren't up to producing more than wishy-washy examples that don't chime with the competent (non-native as well as native) speakers present, and likely won't cut the mustard for real, then I just can't bring myself to ultimately place such teachers' pedagogical recommendations above my own (or those other teachers whom I respect more, linguistic ability/intuition-wise); that being said, I appreciate that learners (that is, some learners) might need rather "basic" (necessary, essential to the process of learning?) examples before they "can" proceed onto the real deal, and there is anecdotal evidence from no less than the likes of Nabokov to "prove" that plodding examples do "work":
http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/teacher/v ... 1827#21827

The only thing is, how many students are of the intellectual calibre of a Nabokov? This is something that Widdowson seems to have overlooked. Most don't have the motivation to reach such a high level themselves, and it's doubtful if their teachers are going to be of much help in getting them to even a passable level of competence if the best they can come up with is only ever sentences along the lines of 'This is a pencil', 'Birds fly' or 'John Sinclair goes apesh*t' (allusion to the front material of the COBUILD Grammar there).

fluffyhamster wrote:Have you tried googling 'she/he is going to sleep', metal? There don't appear to be that many isolated sentences like that floating around (my point being - indeed, was before - that more context is needed...which is precisely why the users whose usage appear on Google searches aren't producing stuff like 'She is going to sleep.' (Note the capital letter and full stop there)).

I have a new daughter. She often cries when she wants to be fed. Sometimes, by the time I have prepared her bottle, she drifts into sleep.

The dialogue in our house goes like this:


Wife: (calling into the kitchen) She is going to sleep.

Me: Well keep her awake. She has to eat now or she'll be awake in another hour and screaming.

Nuff said.

fluffyhamster wrote:


The only thing is, how many students are of the intellectual calibre of a Nabokov? This is something that Widdowson seems to have overlooked. Most don't have the motivation to reach such a high level themselves, and it's doubtful if their teachers are going to be of much help in getting them to even a passable level of competence if the best they can come up with is only ever sentences along the lines of 'This is a pencil', 'Birds fly' or 'John Sinclair goes apesh*t' (allusion to the front material of the COBUILD Grammar there).

My God! Where, who and what have you been teaching? If I were one of your students, I'd fire you immediately just for your patronising attitude.

fluffyhamster wrote:Would you say that this is an example of the be going to construction?

Could be.

Hi, students. How lovely language can be - and you don't have to be little Nabokovs to enjoy it, whatever some teachers may tell you contra.

"A spiral closing clockwise is going to sleep. A spiral closing anticlockwise is in pain.·