Chunks, big or small?

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 5:40 pm

As a language teacher, working with elementary levels, which version of questioning below would you find yourself using and/or most useful in an ESL classroom?

Asking a student about his weekend:

Maciek. Your weekend… Tell me.
Oh, nice. Very nice.
Your grandmother's house?
Yes, in Malbork.
A long walk?
Yes, to the castle.
And later?
Computer games.
How long?
2 hours. My limit. You know.
-----------

Maciek. How was your weekend… Tell me about it.
Oh, nice. Very nice.
Did you go to your grandmother's house?
Yes, in Malbork.
Did you go for a long walk?
Yes, to the castle.
And what did you do later?
Computer games.
How long did you play for?
2 hours. My limit. You know.

Andrew Patterson · Post by **Andrew Patterson** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:05 pm

The second. Short simple BUT COMPLETE sentences.

But make sure the stressed words are stressed.

lolwhites · Post by **lolwhites** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:24 pm

Probably a mix of the two. I'd start with the full questions, but And later? is a perfectly perfectly natural chunk so I'd say it, while I'm not sure that the meaning of Your grandmother's house? is immediately clear in any case.

I'd also use natural intonation and stress, so I'd pronounce Did you go... as "didjago..." in the first instance and only slow down if the student didn't understand.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 7:34 pm

Andrew Patterson wrote:The second. Short simple BUT COMPLETE sentences.

But make sure the stressed words are stressed.

In a teacher-student dialogue, why would you need to use complete sentences with elementary level students?

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 7:36 pm

lolwhites wrote:Probably a mix of the two. I'd start with the full questions, but And later? is a perfectly perfectly natural chunk so I'd say it, while I'm not sure that the meaning of Your grandmother's house? is immediately clear in any case.

It probably would be if the student has a habit of going to Granny's house at the weekend".

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 7:38 pm

Hmm. I'd probably find myself using the first dialogue style.

Lolwhites and Andrew, how do your choices fit together with these observations?

"N. Ellis (1996), for example, has suggested that learners bootstrap their way to grammar by first internalising and then analyzing fixed sequences. Classroom studies by Ellis (1984), Myles, Mitchell & Hooper (1998; 1999) and Myles (2004) demonstrate that learners often internalize rote-learned material as chunks, breaking them down for analysis later on."

http://www.asian-efl-journal.com/September_05_re.php

lolwhites · Post by **lolwhites** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 9:12 pm

How do my choices fit in? Well, when I teach elementary English or Spanish I often teach chunks without bothering with grammatical analysis at first. So I'd treat How was What did you and How long did you as chunks and break them down later on.

Similarly with Spanish, I'd teach Quiero... in the context of ordering in a bar (Quiero un café/una cerveza...) without going into the deatils of verb conjugation. A few weeks later, when we actually "did" the present tense, I'd say "Do you remember that lesson on bars? That's why the waiter said Qué quiere? and you replied Quiero...."

Full marks to Metal for coming up with a context when you can say Grandmother's house? and be understood. I suppose if that were the situation, I might say it.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 9:31 pm

lolwhites wrote:How do my choices fit in? Well, when I teach elementary English or Spanish I often teach chunks without bothering with grammatical analysis at first. So I'd treat How was What did you and How long did you as chunks and break them down later on.

Thing is, there are 4 extra words and a mix of the present and the past tense in the second example below. For beginners and elementary students, that's double the learning load.

Your weekend… Tell me.
How was your weekend… Tell me about it.

Similarly with Spanish, I'd teach Quiero... in the context of ordering in a bar (Quiero un café/una cerveza...) without going into the deatils of verb conjugation. A few weeks later, when we actually "did" the present tense, I'd say "Do you remember that lesson on bars? That's why the waiter said Qué quiere? and you replied Quiero...."
Why wouldn't you add "tomar" to the "quiero" question?

Full marks to Metal for coming up with a context when you can say Grandmother's house? and be understood. I suppose if that were the situation, I might say it.
I imagine that was the intention of the speaker and not my invention. It seems clear.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 12:31 am

...many of us have bought a picture and then gone out and bought a frame for it. But not many of us have bought a frame and then gone out to find a picture to put in it. Grammar – structure- is actually the frame, isn’t it? So, it seems very odd to put all the emphasis on the frame and not on the picture.

Michael Lewis

I think
there is a terrific
emphasis on avoiding
mistakes from native
teachers. But you
can’t learn a language without making
mistakes. So if you can only say correct
things you will sit at the desk silent
forever. I think students need to be
encouraged to be confident to try out
stuff..

M Lewis

lolwhites · Post by **lolwhites** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 7:01 am

Thing is, there are 4 extra words and a mix of the present and the past tense in the second example below. For beginners and elementary students, that's double the learning load.

Your weekend… Tell me.
How was your weekend… Tell me about it.

It would certainly be "doubling the load" if the students had never seen any of the language before, but in the context of a one year course (say), they might well have come across tell me/your partner... before. It comes up a lot in so-called "communicative" courses; tell your partner about your house/your family/your typical day/your home town..., so I don't see that as a problem.

Why wouldn't you add "tomar" to the "quiero" question?

I might, then again I might leave tomar for another lesson. My elementary Spanish classes usually involved adult learners who hadn't seen the inside of a classroom for years so it was best to go quite slowly at first. If I'd hit them with tomar, deme, dame and so on, I'd have scared them off. More a question of practicalities and keeping the students than applied linguistics, I admit, but if they stay the course then (a) they learn and (b) I keep my job.

Regular posters will not be surprised to learn that I agree totally with your quotes from Lewis.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 7:36 am

My elementary Spanish classes usually involved adult learners who hadn't seen the inside of a classroom for years so it was best to go quite slowly at first.

Good decision. With lower levels, it's also good not to use always one's advantage as a NES. The most important thing is to get conversation going, no matter how basic.

Stephen Jones · Post by **Stephen Jones** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 8:12 am

The danger with the first type of questioning is that you will lapse into pidgin.

I tend to go for the second.., though obviously there will be a mix. Remember that English stress patterns will make the second set of sentences sound like the first with something before, and thus the second will give the student practice in honing in on the important.

The grammatically full version is commoner than one would think in real life, particularly amongst less educated speakers.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 8:28 am

[

The danger with the first type of questioning is that you will lapse into pidgin.

If you are a good teacher, you won't.

and thus the second will give the student practice in honing in on the important.

What is "the important" in an elementary level class?

The grammatically full version is commoner than one would think in real life, particularly amongst less educated speakers.

Do you have statistics for that?

Stephen Jones · Post by **Stephen Jones** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 12:39 pm

I'll have to dig the source out for you; all my books are in a box at present.

However it does appear that full grammatical forms are the norm amongst all but the best educated.

That is to say the opposite of the stereotype; the better educated you are the less likely you are to speak "proper English".

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 12:56 pm

Stephen Jones wrote:I'll have to dig the source out for you; all my books are in a box at present.

However it does appear that full grammatical forms are the norm amongst all but the best educated.

That is to say the opposite of the stereotype; the better educated you are the less likely you are to speak "proper English".

So you want your students to sound less educated?