There is / are .....

[William]

1. There is some ham and some cucumbers.
2. There are some cucumbers.

Can someone please explain why the first sentence uses "is" but not "are"?

Thanks,
William

[dduck]

I think the answer lies in proximity of the verb and nouns. Native speakers often get things wrong when the verb and the subject are far from each other. This is especially common in very long sentences; when we speak it's often difficult to remember exactly what we said (i.e. what verb conjugation) we used 20-30 seconds ago.

"1. There is some ham and some cucumbers. "

This sentence is wrong, but native speaker may well produce sentences like this. Why? Because the original thought was "there is some ham" then the speaker tagged on the extra "and some cucumbers" as an afterthought. Most people aren't going to reformulate a sentence like this (in speach) because the meaning is clear.

Iain

[Kofi Asare Bediako]

I think the statement is wrong cause ''is'' is a singular helping verb and it does'nt go with ''some''which is a plural verb.I also think the second statement is correct because they are all in plural form

1. There is some ham and some cucumbers.
2. There are some cucumbers.

Can someone please explain why the first sentence uses "is" but not "are"?

Thanks,
William

[Lorikeet]

According to Grammar in Context, p. 142, "If two nouns follow there use a singular verb (is) if the first noun is singular. Use a plural verb (are) if the first noun is plural.

There is one Korean student and three Mexican students in this class.
There are three Mexican students and one Korean student in this class.

[William]

According to Grammar in Context, p. 142, "If two nouns follow there use a singular verb (is) if the first noun is singular. Use a plural verb (are) if the first noun is plural.

There is one Korean student and three Mexican students in this class.
There are three Mexican students and one Korean student in this class.

Wow, thanks a lot. You helped me solve the puzzle, although the sentence looks simple.

[Lorikeet]

The "correct" (according to the book I quoted) answer aside, I think many native speakers naturally try to avoid that construction.

The interesting thing to me is how the language seems to be changing in the direction of "there's" standing for both "there are" and "there is". Now, I don't teach this, mind you, but I've noticed the trend. I even caught myself saying it (horrors!). "Are you hungry?" "There's some cookies on the table."

I even saw a headline in a newspaper using "there's" with a plural noun. Who knows what the rule will be in a hundred years.

[LarryLatham]

Hi all,

Can we return to William's original question for a moment? He asked why this sentence uses "is" and not "are."

There is some ham and some cucumbers.

I liked Iain's analysis, as far as it went. But I think he may have stopped short of something that seems obvious, at least to me. Look at the overall sentence and consider its meaning as a whole. Could it be that the creator of this sentence is conceptually envisioning "some ham and some cucumbers" as a singular whole? If he does, then it seems quite clear why he chose to use a singular verb.

Larry Latham

[dduck]

I agree, but I'd like to add to my previous comments:

I had lots of trouble learning German, because I had to firstly decide what I wanted to say, then de-construct / re-construct sentences so that I could shift the verb to the end. It became obvious that I don't naturally have 'everything loaded in place ready to go'. Hence, I think that native speakers in natural conversation often construct sentences on-the-hop, without any pre-prepared ideas of which exact words they're going to use.

Iain

[LarryLatham]

I do completely agree with you there, Iain.
We teachers have only to listen to ourselves talking in the classroom to know what you say is true.

Larry Latham

[William]

I do not write English naturally as a native speaker because I learned how to read English first, then write, listen and finally speak English. When I am writing, I create sentences based on grammatical and syntactic rules, and I like to stick to them all the time. I do not mean I will not make errors in writing. Maybe I am just a little stubborn about those rules but this is a part of the traditional Hong Kong education.

[LarryLatham]

Hello again, William,

You are to be commended for having respect for the rules. Indeed, your writing is very clear, and that is the main purpose for having rules of grammar and syntax.

Your traditional HK education notwithstanding, though , I'd just ask you to think about something seriously for a moment. Where do you think those rules come from? Who makes them? Is it English teachers? Textbook writers? Do the rules remain constant forever? Are they never changing? Do you think those people who are responsible for the rules have the right to change them? If so, then who do we look to for signs of changes to come?

To put all this into a context you might be more familiar with, ask yourself whether the rules of Cantonese as spoken in Hong Kong today are the same as the rules of ancient Chinese. If not who changed those rules?

Larry Latham

[Miz]

Wow, a very interesting thread!!

As far as I know, Larry, the ones who change grammar rules are not teachers or textbook writers. Well, maybe so... Maybe these people may come to change some rules, but not because they're grammar experts, but because they're speakers of a language. Every speaker has the power to do that. To create something new, to change some rules and, even if they´re not grammatically correct, people can find it easier or whatever, and start to use it. And, sometimes, coloquialisms win ^^ Am I right?

See what happened to "You" in Portuguese:

Vostra Mercedes > Vostra Mercê > Vosmicê > Você > Cê (not grammatically accepted - yet!)

Just an example...

Aw, and I've used there's followed by plural noun once! I wrote: "There's scrambled eggs and bacon getting cold down there." I had this intention you mentioned in your message. These things as being one... But my teacher told me to change

[LarryLatham]

And, sometimes, coloquialisms win ^^ Am I right?

I believe you are indeed, Miz. It seems clear to me that a language is there for those of us who use it for our everyday living. And if we want to change it, for any reason at all, then we will. And people who happen to teach the language either take the hint, or they become responsible for creating many of the "fossilized" forms which sometimes persist even in the face of change.

Best of luck with your teaching.

Larry Latham

[William]

I am just an ordinary English teacher at a primary school in Hong Kong. But it is unbearable to teach my students something ungrammatical, such as, “There is some eggs.” and “Can I have a coffee?” I do not want to screw up my students’ basis in English grammar. That’s my bottom line.

In Chinese, there are many different dialects and they are evolving all the time but the writing still stays pretty much the same in the recent decades.

Some people are lenient about the rules when they are writing emails. For example, they do not make the first alphabet of a sentence to be capital, do not use full stops, and do not write in paragraphs. I totally cannot accept those habits in my own writing.

[dduck]

But it is unbearable to teach my students something ungrammatical, such as, “There is some eggs.” and “Can I have a coffee?”

What's wrong with "Can I have a coffee?" Coffee becomes countable because we talking about a cup of it, not generic coffee. In fact, it's the cup that's countable, not the coffee, but native speaker miss out that information because it's understood.

Iain