Damage!

[metal56]

What does the expression "damage the language" mean to you?

And is David Crystal right here?

"Dressed in a brown tweed jacket and matching trousers, and sporting a salt-and-pepper beard, Prof David Crystal, 60, an internationally renowned linguist, says abbreviations used in text messages and e-mails ‘‘will not damage the language’’. ‘‘Instead,’’ he says, ‘‘this will help schoolchildren develop a stronger sense of the language.’’ "

http://cities.expressindia.com/fullstor ... sid=102561

[Stephen Jones]

I presume he means cause problems in communication by splitting the language community.

I basically agree with him when he says a little ‘‘tampering with the language does not damage it’’. However, there is the problem that users of text messages end up spending so much time using the spelling conventions of texting that they don't use standard spelling conventions.

It does seem to me however that we are in the same situation with texting that we were with email a few years back. l33t sp33k was all the rage on the net, but as the internet became popular amongst all groups standard spelling and punctuation reinforced their sway.

Of course there is the fact that there is a lot of segmentation on the web, and there are going to be vast numbers of teen networks that keep their own jargon and spelling conventions, just as they have their own social dialects with regard to the spoken form. However, English spelling has shown itself to be remarkably robust over the last three hundred years, and I see no evidence things will change.

On a sidenote, there is an interesting discussion of the same theme in the Guardian today
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... 14,00.html
Jenkin's article is unadulterated rubbish, but the discussion is quite interesting.

And a second sidenote: Cristal appears to have fallen for the common trap of overestimating the power of India in both English and IT. His comments on Indian English as a bridge language between the UK and East Asia is no more than a brain fart.

[lolwhites]

Apparently study by researchers at Coventry University revealed that teenagers who texted frequently had better language skills, not worse, which would bear out what Crystal says.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/educ ... 327358.stm

[metal56]

However, there is the problem that users of text messages end up spending so much time using the spelling conventions of texting that they don't use standard spelling conventions.

That's what I keep hearing, but I don't see any evidence of it. Do you have links to research in this area?

His comments on Indian English as a bridge language between the UK and East Asia is no more than a brain fart.

Why so?

[metal56]

Apparently study by researchers at Coventry University revealed that teenagers who texted frequently had better language skills, not worse, which would bear out what Crystal says.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/educ ... 327358.stm

So where do commentators such as Stephen J. get their information from? Hearsay?

[Stephen Jones]

With regard to the Coventry survey I suspect correlation rather than causation. Students with good communicative skills are likely to communicate more with more people and so will do more texting.

With regard to influencing standard spelling, I should have said 'may not use' standard spelling conventions.

One thing I have definitely noticed in all the forums I read or post to on the web is that those who ignore standard rules of spelling and punctuation are often those with the least interesting things to say, even after you've gone to the additional effort of deciphering it. It seems that the lack of effort put into the presentation is mirrored by a lack of effort put into the content.

It has been pointed out that originally the shorter forms were the result of the 160 character limitation to a message, though they then took a life of their own. Whether the most common will prove to be nothing more than a fad, or whether they will become part of standard ortography is not clear at present.

With regard to Cristal's comment on Indian English as a bridging language, can you tell me one reason in favour of it, unless you view language communication as like aeroplane refuelling and the fact that India is roughly in the middle of the UK-China route to be of importance.

[lolwhites]

"Text speak" can be thought of as another register i.e. it has its time and place, and people need to learn when it is appropriate to use it. When I taught in the UK I don't recall the (British) students ever handing in work covered with things like "l8r" and "ic", though I imagine it has been known to happen, just like there are people who don't appreciate that you talk one way to your teacher and another to your mates.

In other words, if students do put these expressions into their written work, I think it would be rather simplistic to blame texting and we should instead see it as an inability to switch codes and use language appropriate to the situation.

[Stephen Jones]

So where do commentators such as Stephen J. get their information from? Hearsay?

Did read to the end did you?

But Mrs Plester said the research had thrown up many questions, not least whether texting hindered pupils who were struggling in their grasp of standard English.

She hopes to interview more pupils this coming term to focus more on children who were not considered strong readers or writers.

"Using text abbreviations is not damaging fairly competent spellers and writers, but we don't know yet about those who are struggling, those who have less ability with English."

Incidentally, the most pernicious influence on English spelling is the Word spellchecker.

[metal56]

<One thing I have definitely noticed in all the forums I read or post to on the web is that those who ignore standard rules of spelling and punctuation are often those with the least interesting things to say, even after you've gone to the additional effort of deciphering it. It seems that the lack of effort put into the presentation is mirrored by a lack of effort put into the content. >

Oh, I dunno about that, Stephen. There are also a lot of standard English posters who turn out reams of trash posts.

<or whether they will become part of standard ortography is not clear at present. >

Mind your presentation, Stevie. Or is a a touch of the Irish creeping in?

[metal56]

One reason? OK.

Proximity and cheaper classes. Oh, that's two reasons, isn't it?

[Stephen Jones]

Not the most appropriate word to mispell

You don't seem to have understood what Cristal was saying about Indian English as a bridge language. He wasn't suggesting that the Indian subcontinent could become an important centre for the teaching of English (which is possible). He was suggesting that we would end up using Indian English to communicate with Philipinos, Japanese and Chinese. The idea seems profoundly silly.

On the other hand your comment about setting up Language Centres for foreigners on the sub-continent has got the dollar signs rolling in my eyeballs.

Not only can my homestay lessons offer good English and fresh papaya and jak fruit from the garden but Asian students also have the added bonus of seeing if they are going to be struck by lightning (happened to the telephone connection ten days ago, and a coconut tree in the garden a couple of years ago), flooded out (the well was overflowing and there was a foot of water in the garden a couple of days ago), and have dawn and dusk punctuated by the soothing sound of supersonic Israelis kfirs going out to bomb some Tamil orphanage or fishing village and returning from the same (and sometimes crashing into the lagoon nearby). I reckon I'm on to a winner!

[Stephen Jones]

There are also a lot of standard English posters who turn out reams of trash posts.

Fluffy's posts would certainly benefit from a 160 character limit. Perhaps we could get the moderators to tweak the software.

[metal56]

You don't seem to have understood what Cristal was saying about Indian English as a bridge language. He wasn't suggesting that the Indian subcontinent could become an important centre for the teaching of English (which is possible). He was suggesting that we would end up using Indian English to communicate with Philipinos, Japanese and Chinese. The idea seems profoundly silly.

Is that what he was saying?

[Stephen Jones]

A bridge language is a third language used by two other language communities to communicate with each other. English is actually referred to as such in the Sri Lankan Constitution.

You and I speaking to Moroccan speakers in French would be another example of use of a bridge language.

I would presume Cristal would be aware of basic linguistic terms

[metal56]

A bridge language is a third language used by two other language communities to communicate with each other. English is actually referred to as such in the Sri Lankan Constitution.

You and I speaking to Moroccan speakers in French would be another example of use of a bridge language.

I would presume Cristal would be aware of basic linguistic terms

Yes, of course, but one has to learn the bridge variant somewhere, doesn't one; Stevie? So, back to this:

His comments on Indian English as a bridge language between the UK and East Asia is no more than a brain fart.

How so? Why cannot IE be a bridge?

And BTW, his name is Crystal with a "y".

More Crystal:

"...in the words of Professor David Crystal, author of the Cambridge Encyclopaedia of the English Language , who predicts that Indian English will soon become the most widely spoken variant of English as a result of India's economic rise and the sheer size of its population. ‘When 300 hundred million Indians pronounce an English word in a certain way', he says, ‘it will be the only way to pronounce it.' Raghuvir Sahay sums it up well: “The English taught us English to turn us into subjects/ Now we teach ourselves English to turn into masters”. "

http://www.ccsindia.org/ccsindia/gdas/toi.htm