Teacher Discussion Forums

Posted: **Wed Nov 08, 2006 12:49 pm**

With all these threads abounding about British, American, Indian, International and so on Englishes I wonder if a quick reality check isn't in order.

My students end up speaking an English which is largely influenced by.................. wait for it................. Spanish.

They haven't noticed when they've had an American or an Australian teacher. They've had NNE teachers without realising it.

Mostly the choice is like choosing a brand. Bourbon or Scotch? American or British? Not that there's much in it. It's a fashion statement.

Going oneself or sending the spoilt little brat to "The Manhattan School" or "The Brighton School" is not an endorsement of a complete lifestyle. Just of a selection of some of the flashier trappings of that lifestyle. To show off. German car, British academy (Or French and American?).

It's not a vote for Bush or Blair either. Nor is it a rational decision based on which English is going to be most useful. It's may even be mostly based on which academy is nearer home.

What are we talking about anyway? A tiny amount of grammar. Some lexis. An accent? Most learners' discernable English accent is their L1. I don't speak Spanish like a Basque or a Mexican. I speak it like a Brit!

Posted: **Wed Nov 08, 2006 1:36 pm**

They haven't noticed when they've had an American or an Australian teacher. They've had NNE teachers without realising it.

To which level of student are we referring there?

Posted: **Wed Nov 08, 2006 2:03 pm**

Even up to CPE many Spanish students are blissfully unaware of the origins of their NS teachers. I work with a South African and a Londoner. Nobody has mentioned noticing any difference between the three of us's accent (Is that English?).

And well past a level of FCE most but not all can be taught by an admittedly very good NNS without noticing.

I used to freelance at around about 10 academies and 3 secondary schools and at these places there'd been a hotch-potch of: American and Australian backpacking teachers, a Canadian, very good and not so good NNS teachers, good and not very good NS teachers from all over the British Isles, lots of them of Scottish and Irish (good and bad!), a Dutch girl who often "forgot" to mention it, another South African etc

But you'd have to be a Professor Higgins to know who had taught who. As I said, mostly they were influenced by their L1: usually Spanish though occasionally Basque.

Posted: **Wed Nov 08, 2006 5:34 pm**

Even up to CPE many Spanish students are blissfully unaware of the origins of their NS teachers.

Wow! So teachers don't talk about their background, family, country, etc?

Back to differences.

Qualitative vs. quantitive differences:

"Katikar’s study of modal usage in Indian English (1984, cited in Shastri 1988) noted few qualitative differences from British and American
English, but, as Leitner (1991) has pointed out, differences between Indian
English and other Englishes have tended most often to be quantitative rather than qualitative. It thus seems likely that any differences in modal use between Indian English, British English and American English will also prove to be quantitative.

http://icame.uib.no/ij29/ij29-page151-170.pdf

"The Kolhapur Corpus of Indian English as a whole contains fewer
instances of expressions of future than the LOB and the Brown corpora.
This seems to indicate that there is a difference between Indian English
on the one hand and American and British English on the other, at least
as far as the frequency of these expressions of future is concerned.
Among the factors that might explain this difference are the use of
alternative expressions, selection of texts or cultural factors. Perhaps it
is as Shastri (1988:18) suggests: ‘Maybe the Indian mind is not given
to thinking much in terms of the future ...’"

http://icame.uib.no/ij21/berglund.pdf

Does AE and BE advise using such in business letters?

“Dear Sir – We beg to acknowledge receipt of your letter of the 16th instant regarding the price charged for…"

Posted: **Wed Nov 08, 2006 6:20 pm**

Maiming verbs:

Jyoti Sanyal, the author of The
Statesman Style Book will trace some
chief defects of technical writing in
India with real examples. For instance,
he will explain why many writers in
India indulge in "maiming" verbs by
converting them into nouns, and then
dump a "crutch verb" on each (For
example, why we use ’We carried out
an inspection of the route to... instead
of, We inspected the route to...’).

http://stc-india.org/indus/112002/PDF/Nov2002.pdf

Posted: **Wed Nov 08, 2006 7:14 pm**

Yes well. Obviously students get to know where their teachers are from, with time and with other clues. I mean that a teacher with a very marked specific accent is not identified by even very high level students only on the basis of that accent. I suspect first impressions are based more on hair colour, dress, mannerisms and even size than anything else. Names presumably help.

So there are statistical quantative differences in modal use between Englishes. It's hardly earth-shattering: they're used in similar ways and no variant has stopped using one of them completely, as far as I could see. Now that would be something else.

Your link to Indus was revealing. 18 pages of completely standard slightly technical English with one paragraph about differences in style in Indian technical English!

The futures stuff is interesting. But read on to the conclusion:

"What this study shows is that there is indeed
a difference between the occurrence of the expressions of future examined.

In my opinion this difference depends primarily on medium and, as a
consequence of that, is reflected as a difference between text hypercategories.

I have found no evidence pointing to major, consistent variation
due to regional factors."

But I agree with you that that slightly fusty tone of "Business English", which can also be detected to a lesser extent in other forms, is a significant difference. However it has died out in other Englishes so I can't see it lasting in Indian English. And if it did, it'd still not be much in the way of grounds for saying that Indian English was radically different.

Wiki on Indian English

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_English

is interesting but it gathers a lot of differences in one place. You can read swathes of Indian papers, up, middle and down market, and not come across much difference for ages:

http://www.indiapress.org/index.php/English/400x60

apart from the vague feeling that you're reading pre-war English some of
the time!

I'm sorry but the differences betweeen the bigger Englishes don't add up to much for me. And I have to wonder how perceptible at all they'd be to most learners.

That's enough googling for me for the moment. Though I've learnt a lot from these furious searches for something to back my hunches

Posted: **Wed Nov 08, 2006 8:24 pm**

<So there are statistical quantative differences in modal use between Englishes. It's hardly earth-shattering: they're used in similar ways and no variant has stopped using one of them completely, as far as I could see. Now that would be something else.>

Not sure what it is you're looking for here, JTT. There are differences. They may be small, or larger in some areas of use, but they are there. If a teacher points out the differences between AE and BE in class, then why point out the difference between those variants and others?

Indian English will grow, no matter who wishes to stop it or hide that fact from their students.When I work with IT people in Spain, I introduce some elements of Indian English into the class. In fact, many of my students work with India in business. They often ask for help in dealing with the English/es they hear from their Indian counterparts.

Onward:

<<The write-as-you-speak rule applied to English in India
raises the question whose language do we use: the bureaucrat’s,
the lawyer’s or the merchant office executive’s?
Obviously, none of these hideous models can serve for easy,
human interaction. And yet, because English in India has
been used more to serve commerce, trade and law than
everyday human needs, most Indians serve a khichri of those
models when they write in English – be it letters, textbooks
or the news.>>

From Indlish, by Jyoto Sanjal.

And if it did, it'd still not be much in the way of grounds for saying that Indian English was radically different.

I've never heard anyone claim that it is radically different. Are you suggesting that it should not be given the status of a variant?

I'm sorry but the differences betweeen the bigger Englishes don't add up to much for me. And I have to wonder how perceptible at all they'd be to most learners.

I repeat:

<<They (my students) often ask for help in dealing with the English/es they hear from their Indian counterparts. Not just help with pronunciation and accent, but also syntax, vocabulary and pragmatic use.

Posted: **Wed Nov 08, 2006 8:35 pm**

<I'm sorry but the differences betweeen the bigger Englishes don't add up to much for me. And I have to wonder how perceptible at all they'd be to most learners. >

Does one need a floodlight to be able to perceive that something odd is afoot here?

Formats ‘for use in every home and office but mainly intended for use in Indian schools’:

346. To a very dear friend who paid a flying visit to you: It
all seems like a dream! Your dear visit so ardently wished
and hoped for, has come and gone like lightning! But not
without having left much comfort and gratitude, especially
in my heart! Pray, do come to us again ere long and stay
longer.

347. Thanks for a gift: I sit now this gay morning to convey
my thanks to you for the loveliest present, only wishing that
my pen could set down at least a little of my liveliest feelings
with regard to your kind choice! Oh! How can I adequately
thank you!

From Indlish.

Posted: **Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:40 pm**

Fair enough. Something may be going on, and IndE should certainly be in a triumvirate with BrE and AmE. None of the other Englishes come close, unless there is some kind of widespread standard Pacific Rim English?

But how much time and effort do you really spend on the relatively few differences between AmE and BrE? And does IndE need any more?

You can produce bits of "odd" sounding Ind E. I have been reading column inches of the same without raising an eyebrow. It's hardly conclusive.

Let's wait and see. We obviously have demanding clients: Basques are not known for tiptoeing around! If they are not equipped to do business with IndE speakers I'll soon find out.
If we can cope with "I already did it" we can stretch to "I am thinking that".

Posted: **Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:50 am**

metal56 wrote:In fact, many of my students work with India in business. They often ask for help in dealing with the English/es they hear from their Indian counterparts...Not just help with pronunciation and accent, but also syntax, vocabulary and pragmatic use.

I wondered on the 'Investigating AL fora' thread whether IE speakers try to predict when usages (perhaps a better word here now would be "style", stylistic flourishes) specific to IE might cause problems in international communication. Seems not, eh!

And there we native teachers are, beating ourselves up over what sometimes seems to be every single word and phrase we dare to teach.

Posted: **Thu Nov 09, 2006 7:29 am**

But how much time and effort do you really spend on the relatively few differences between AmE and BrE? And does IndE need any more?

I think that would depend on the L1 of the student. For example, Japanese students find IndEng pronunciation easier understand than they do AE pronunciation. So, a student may need more tome spent on pronunciation if studying AE.

If we can cope with "I already did it" we can stretch to "I am thinking that".

[As I said, learning a language and its variants involves more than just looking at structural differences. For some, the differences in use regarding vocabulary may be trivial, but they are nevertheless there and should be brought to the attention of students who may later be in contact with Indian English speakers. Of course, if a student really wants to learn the contemporary use of english in India, they would have to find teachers who are equipped to teach such. I, unfortunately, am not equipped for such, at the moment.

'Ladki ko mari line, girlfriend boli, I'm fine!'

What exactly is Inglish is not easy to define, and needs empirical research. Is its base English or our vernacular bhashas? If it's the latter, then it is similar to Franglais, the fashionable concoction of mostly French with English words thrown in that drives purists mad. Or is its support English, with an overlay of bhasha? I think it is both. For the upwardly mobile lower middle class, it is bhasha mixed with some English words, such as what my newsboy speaks: "Mein aaj busy hoon, kal bill doonga definitely." Or my bania's helper: "Voh mujhe avoid karti hai!" For the classes, on the other hand, the base is definitely English, as in: 'Hungry, kya?' or 'Careful yaar, voh dangerous hai!' The middle middle class seems to employ an equal combination, as in Zee News' evening bulletin, "Aaj Middle East mein peace ho gayi!" Three Hindi words and three of English.

http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/display.article?id=5675

Posted: **Thu Nov 09, 2006 7:58 am**

fluffyhamster wrote:
metal56 wrote:In fact, many of my students work with India in business. They often ask for help in dealing with the English/es they hear from their Indian counterparts...Not just help with pronunciation and accent, but also syntax, vocabulary and pragmatic use.
I wondered on the 'Investigating AL fora' thread whether IE speakers try to predict when usages (perhaps a better word here now would be "style", stylistic flourishes) specific to IE might cause problems in international communication. Seems not, eh!

And there we native teachers are, beating ourselves up over what sometimes seems to be every single word and phrase we dare to teach.

Then again, like JTT is implying, if learners wherever don't really notice accents, maybe fancy phrasings will also pass them by as they zero in on just the keywords and presumed meaning (this is all assuming that there's nothing too "outlandish" like 'prepone' throwing a spanner in the works), so who are we native speakers to start making tut-tutting noises when we meet stuff like "Dear Sir – We beg to acknowledge receipt of your letter of the 16th instant regarding the price charged for…". Even though I don't like the wording there, I can work out that the writer is acknowledging that a 'letter was received regarding...' (right? LOL), and so too presumably could learners, or non-natives, or speakers of English variety X etc.

Posted: **Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:16 am**

fluffyhamster wrote:
I wondered on the 'Investigating AL fora' thread whether IE speakers try to predict when usages (perhaps a better word here now would be "style", stylistic flourishes) specific to IE might cause problems in international communication. Seems not, eh!
Many do "predict" in fact, but one could ask the same of AE speakers who do business internationally. And do you expect it to be all one-sided? Should Indians spend hours of their free-time learning both IE, then AE and BE? Or, should those who study or speak BE and AE make a little extra effort to become aware of usage in other variants? Do you really think that most of the AE speaking business people traveling the world daily adjuct their usage yo suit their listeners?

As I said, many Japanese people find IE pronunciation easier to understand than AE. How many AE speaking business people are aware of that fact and being so try to adjust their pronunciation to their listeners ears?

And there we native teachers are, beating ourselves up over what sometimes seems to be every single word and phrase we dare to teach.
You seem to beat yourself over such things. I don't.

Posted: **Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:18 am**

Let's wait and see.

Or we could keep reading and learning:

http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/display.article?id=5675

Posted: **Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:22 am**

fluffyhamster wrote:so who are we native speakers to start making tut-tutting noises when we meet stuff like "Dear Sir – We beg to acknowledge receipt of your letter of the 16th instant regarding the price charged for…". Even though I don't like the wording there, I can work out that the writer is acknowledging that a 'letter was received regarding...' (right? LOL), and so too presumably could learners, or non-natives, or speakers of English variety X etc.

True, but would you then advise your students to use the same style of writing when communicating with Indians?

And would you agree with this professor?

Professor Harish Trivedi of Delhi University contemptuously says, "Indian English? It's merely incorrect English."

Teacher Discussion Forums

How different are these Englishes really?

How different are these Englishes really?