Teacher Discussion Forums

OK, let me start by saying I'd like people to read and reflect on what I'm about to say before posting a response:

I can't help feeling that over the last few months the level of debate here has fallen close to the primary school playground level. When I joined this forum just over 3 years ago, it was possible to post ideas and, even if others didn't agree with you, you could normally expect that they would at least make the effort to respond to what you'd said. I remember having long arguments with Stephen Jones and Woodcutter where, while we disagreed profoundly, we at least had enough respect to address the issues the other raised. Quite frankly, over the last few months that attitude seems to have gone out of the window.

What I see now (and I've done this in the past too) is an approach that consists of "Find the bits of the post that I can respond to with a glib wisecrack, quote them and ignore the rest". The result is that valid points get buried under a mass of cheap shots. Sometimes responses appear so soon after the original post that there clearly hasn't been time to read properly and reflect before replying; it's not so much a discussion forum as a shouting forum. If that's what people want, then fine, but it's not what I was looking for when I started posting here.

I'm not saying my attitudes have always been 100%; I'd be the first to admit to making quips about someone's typing errors rather than address the issues. It's easy to get carried away sometimes, but now it seems to happen all the time. It's not that I object to a bit of heated debate, quite the contrary. I can take a few knocks and give as good as I get if I think it's going to lead somewhere, but recently the heat-to-light-generated ratio has got so high that I find myself wondering if there's really any point in carrying on.

How do others feel?

It might have helped if you'd expressed your feelings right at or soon after you'd witnessed what you felt was "conduct unbecoming", because then others could've spoken up too and perhaps brought some sort of pressure to bear on whoever would've then been perceived as the troublemaker on at least that occassion.

I'm not saying that I'm so pure and innocent that I should be allowed to cast or invite the casting of the first stone, and probably the last thing we now need is an analysis or inquiry into past misdeeds, but I too would like to see a semblance of civility return to the AL forum.

Anyway, one thing I wouldn't mind your opinion on, lol, is do you find my posts so unclear that you have no choice but to ignore them (or would rubbish them if you did choose to respond), or do you reckon that some claim they can't understand a word I write just so that they can avoid addressing any potentially valid points (this ultimately depends on how many choose to join in and agree or disagree - if they felt more inclined to join in, that is!) that I might sometimes make? At least that's what I'm reading into this part of what you wrote:

What I see now (and I've done this in the past too) is an approach that consists of "Find the bits of the post that I can respond to with a glib wisecrack, quote them and ignore the rest". The result is that valid points get buried under a mass of cheap shots.

Of course, I may have totally got things the wrong way around, but I'd actually be quite surprised if you said that I was the main troublemaker drowning out other opinions here all the time.

I'm not sure actually if I should've written anything here at all, or at least nothing quite so direct, but if I didn't say anything you might've felt like I sometimes did when I was waiting for you and others to at least comment during "critical" periods.

Or hey, you could always just PM me (or whoever) LOL.

I didn't raise the issue before because most threads didn't use to turn into flame wars, and when they did I usually backed away as I couldn't see the point in getting involved in them. Perhaps those of us who said nothing gave the false impression of condoning it but hey, it's too late now. My concern is that it happens more and more frequently, and the number of regular posters here is getting smaller. I suspect this may not be simple coincidence. If I was a new poster with in interest in discussing language, I would think twice about registering here after reading some of the most recent threads. I've lost count of the number of times I've read a post and though "This person is an adult, they can do better than this, surely."

As to your question about what I think of your posts, I'd say I sometimes found them unclear; not to the point of being totally incomprehensible and maybe if I'd bothered to print them off rather than read them on a computer screen I'd have found them easier to read. Personally I think it's best to make a few clear points rather than write essays, but that's more a question of style than posting etiquette. My gripe is what I see as an increasing tendency to score points rather than engage meaningfully. I'm not going to talk about "main troublemakers" as I don't think it's constructive to name and shame; I'm interested in trying to move things forward.

There's a constant problem of tone not being transmitted successfully. You have to assume that some or most of the apparently more hurtful, snippy or patronising comments were not meant to be like that. Unless you write very well, or you litter your post with emoticons just in case, it's hard for anybody to always see the smile that was on your face when you pecked away at the keyboard.

That's one point. Another is that there is a trend towards picking up on the least well expressed portion of a post and deliberately putting the least likely and most perverse interpretation on it and then banging on about that being the writer's opinion. It's not unconnected with my first point.

Take the threads about Indian English: If I said "Maybe Indian English isn't taken seriously because its speakers are not the right colour" you could easily jump down my throat, ignore my track record of a usually fairly PC position on things and not come to the most obvious conclusion that I don't agree that this should be so. It would be taken out of its context and put in one of those nice little quote boxes with some three word cheap shot underneath.

And finally I think we've all been rushing about using Google Scholar far too much. I'm as guilty as hell. Regurgitating highly selective snippets of scholarship only if they support what we are banging on about at the time.

Finally I think it's silly to mix up the long and short posts. You write an extensive post and get a three word reply which answers none of your questions but instead asks one, which usually is in line with my comments above:
it is or comes across as being patronising, deliberately misrepresents and then attacks what you didn't say and gets in a quick dig whilst it's at it.

Getting nobody anywhere.

lolwhites wrote:I can take a few knocks and give as good as I get if I think it's going to lead somewhere, but recently the heat-to-light-generated ratio has got so high that I find myself wondering if there's really any point in carrying on.

How do others feel?

Carry on, is what I say. Find the diamonds in the muck pile. Sit back. Wait. Fora are full of ups and downs. IMHO, posting threads such as this one can drive posters away more than any of the little moments of bickering and such. The latter disappear into the mire while the former stand out like a sore thumb. I'd suggest you air your dirty laundry in private, but that's just me.

To be honest I think there's too much muck to sift through right now, most of which is quite unnecessary, and the diamonds are getting buried too deep. I long for the days of Larry Latham vs Stephen Jones - at least they actually seriously engaged with one another.

It's rather frustrating to post a thought out, considered response when all you get in return is quote'n'quip. And I think it might be putting new people of joining, which is a real shame.

To be honest I think there's too much muck to sift through right now, most of which is quite unnecessary, and the diamonds are getting buried too deep. I long for the days of Larry Latham vs Stephen Jones - at least they actually seriously engaged with one another.

As I did with Larry. IMO, he was driven from the forum by posters who hated to see issues, on which they had no previous knowledge, discussed .

There were a couple of "I should have known this before and now I'm going to hide the fact that I didn't by trashing all post on this subject" or "I see no relevance of this issue to ESL teaching and so I'm going to spend all my time trashing all posts on this subject" type posters - one or two are still here.

It takes a trasher to know a trasher, IMHO. As for the "quote'n'quips", I think we all know who's the champ there, too.

fluffyhamster wrote:It takes a trasher to know a trasher, IMHO. As for the "quote'n'quips", I think we all know who's the champ there, too.

It seems a shame, but totally in character, that you should want to point a finger directly at individuals. Is it your wish to turn a whole forum against one person?

Steady on guys! I gave the thread the title Enough already! for a reason. Like I said before, I didn't start this thread with the intention of naming and shaming, but in the hope that we might all reflect on our recent behaviour. I think that's everyone's responsibility here.

Maybe it would help if we resisted the temptation to rise to the bait sometimes, or simply waited a few minutes before clicking "Submit".

Metal, spare me the hypocrisy (or should that be 'false innocence').

I wonder how much longer people will respond on threads that you begin when you disregard most of what they have to say (especially when they seem to be making what appear to be pretty valid counter-arguments - BTW, I'm talking more about SJ's than my own posts here, before you start scoffing too loudly).

If the only opinions that ultimately matter to you and that you're prepared to fully acknowledge are your own, or those sources you deem worthy of properly quoting, then do us all a favour and quit it with the sham Socratic antics - just type up something long and considered enough that others' responses will be less "called for" (it would be nice actually to know exactly what it is we're supposed to be taking issue with half the time in some of your posts).

So, if you don't mind, I'd prefer to clearly state all that here, just the once, rather than seemingly have to only half-state it whenever I'm next (and I'm not sure when that will be, exactly) having to deal with your BS (assuming you keep on with it). Strange, these Teacher forum "formalities" (I reckon you'd last, what, two minutes on the International forums, before disappearing in masses of flaming hellfire).

There, one less poster perhaps for you to need to triumph over, eh! Maybe one day soon you'll indeed be able to have that nice conversation with only yourself that you've always been seeming to want to have.

metal56 wrote:

fluffyhamster wrote:It takes a trasher to know a trasher, IMHO. As for the "quote'n'quips", I think we all know who's the champ there, too.

It seems a shame, but totally in character, that you should want to point a nger directly at individuals. Is it your wish to turn a whole forum against one person?

Oh, and while I'm at it, metal, you wouldn't be appearing just a little bit PARANOID there, would you?

I wouldn't worry too much about anyone trying to "turn the forum" against anyone else. I'm an adult and I'm not about to turn against anyone just because someone else thinks I should, and I imagine everyone else feels the same way. And, whatever's been said in the past, I'm still ready to engage with anyone (and I really do mean anyone) ready to have a proper discussion.

I first started posting when there were great arguments with the fellow from China and Larry. I thoroughly enjoyed those even though it was obvious that Shuntang, was it, was just arguing for arguments sake. He brought out some pretty deep thinking from Larry and the rest of you.
Funny how you can tell who is writing even though you don't look at the names of the regulars. Isn't that just personality or character and who wants to change any of that? Viva la differance.
I personally want to thank all of you for hours and hours of interesting reading and thought provoking discussion. Keep it up.
How about a book complied from the diamonds for new teachers?
I bet that is what Larry is up to these days.