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Is the present perfect being shown the door?
Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:11 am
by metal56
Over time, the present perfect has increased in use over the preterite in German, French and some other languages to a position where it now clearly dominates. In English too, the present perfect increased in use over the preterite from the days of Old English, through Middle English and up to the beginning of the Modern English period. But what about today? Which form dominates in English? Some would say that the present perfect is on the wane or even redundant in contemporary English. Would you agree with those people?
Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 5:04 am
by fluffyhamster
I haven't read the prior related thread(s) that closely, but I recall that somebody mentioned using adverbs such as 'just' to express things like 'He('s) just arrived' (not sure if 'He just arrived' is ambiguous, it's not exactly like 'He just sat there (saying nothing, as opposed to 'He just sat there' meaning "He just left and the seat is still warm, see?" LOL)'). But isn't this a case of "swings and roundabouts" - lose the perfect part of the verb phrase but add a syllable elsewhere.
Personally, I like the perfect (even though it can be hard to catch, to get etc, for learners especially), and if it can actually help make meanings that bit clearer, allow such nuances, then why dispense with it? That doesn't mean however that I don't suggest simple past as an alternative where there doesn't seem to be a great difference (and although it may seem to be going back a little on my opening above, I've been especially struck by "resultatives" like 'Sorry, I've broken/I broke your pen').
Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 7:46 am
by metal56
Personally, I like the perfect (even though it can be hard to catch, to get etc, for learners especially), and if it can actually help make meanings that bit clearer, allow such nuances, then why dispense with it?
Anuradha says that the nuances are too difficult for NNES and so the present perfect should be omitted from beginner and intermediate levels and maybe should be dropped from English altogether. She feels that the preterite is now dominant. I'm not sure.
Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 8:52 am
by Lorikeet
I teach the present perfect. It usually comes up first in sentences like, "I've lived here for ten years." and in questions like, "How long have you been here?" I can't think of any other way to express so succinctly the idea that something started in the past and is continuing in the present.
That particular use of the present perfect is very easy for students to understand.
The use of the present perfect in a situation like: "Oh, you're going to France? I've been there." is harder to explain, but I use it, and it's different to me than "I was there."
However, with markers like "yet," "already" and "just" in American English, the present perfect isn't necessary, and I teach that some people consider the present perfect "correct" but most people use it the other way.
Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 10:06 am
by metal56
However, with markers like "yet," "already" and "just" in American English, the present perfect isn't necessary, and I teach that some people consider the present perfect "correct" but most people use it the other way.
So, in AE, it's actually not the preterite that is able to connect past and future, it's the adverb, right? The present perfect can do the same without reliance on adverbs, cotext, or extra-linguistic context.
Would you say that, in AE, the preterite now dominates in such use?
Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 10:48 am
by metal56
I just found/I've just found (
) this:
"The present perfect is more frequent in British English and the preterite more frequent in American English. The claims often made to that effect have been amply confirmed."
The Use of the Perfect and the Preterite and in Present-day English, by Johan Elsness.
Source used: LOB/BUC corpora.
Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 11:42 am
by jotham
It's still very strong for experience in American. (I've eaten sushi.) I can't imagine that would go away any time soon. I doubt that the present perfect will be out in our lifetimes. You must be looking a hundred years down the road. I don't know what resultative is, but that kind of sentence (I've broken your pen) is precisely what doesn't sound quite right to Americans. This sentence doesn't have anything to do with the past continuing into the present (which Americans still indulge in). It doesn't sound ungrammatical, just a little pompous sounding, and, well, British.
Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:13 pm
by metal56
jotham wrote: It doesn't sound ungrammatical, just a little pompous sounding, and, well, British.
I see. Is it the same with:
Oh my God! Jimmy has broken his leg!
Is that pompous sounding?
Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:35 pm
by jotham
Yeah, especially with a British accent. But maybe formal as well, which is a little different than pompous. It may sound more acceptable to Americans with a contraction: Jimmy's broken his leg.
Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 1:44 pm
by metal56
jotham wrote:Yeah, especially with a British accent.
Whatever that is.
But maybe formal as well, which is a little different than pompous. It may sound more acceptable to Americans with a contraction: Jimmy's broken his leg.
I understand, but what I'm trying to get to is what AE speakers normally say if someone has an accident right in front of them and when they check the victim, they see it's a broken leg. Are you telling me AE speakers would say "
Jimmy broke his leg! Get help quick."
Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 3:01 pm
by jotham
Definitely. The first phrase is more likely to be varied than the second, depending on age, clique, or religion.
Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 3:50 pm
by metal56
jotham wrote:Definitely. The first phrase is more likely to be varied than the second, depending on age, clique, or religion.
Note my edit.
Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 4:26 pm
by lolwhites
Taken from In Company - Upper Intermediate:
Profits went up. Are profits up now?
(a) Yes (b) No (c) Maybe
Profits have gone up. Are profits up now?
(a) Yes (b) No (c) Maybe
How do you make that distinction in English without present perfect? I think it'll be with us for a long time yet - rumours of its death have been greatly exaggerated!
Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 5:16 pm
by metal56
Confusion over AE use?
"I disagree that Americans do not say "Have you eaten yet?". I am an American, and I have said and heard that many times, so I'm not sure where this idea that we don't say it comes from.
Here is how I see it... If it were still within the time in which I expect they would have eaten, I would say "Have you eaten yet?", but if that time has passed, I would say "Did you eat?'"
So, when do AE speakers use "Did you eat?" or "Did you see the new Clooney movie?".
Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 8:53 pm
by JuanTwoThree
I've just seen a very funny video in which the boy says "Oh my gaad, she broke it" rather than "she's broken it".
He's American. So that proves it.
I'm not posting a link. Even though it's not what you are thinking, it might offend.