second conditional

MrPedantic · Post by **MrPedantic** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 12:00 am

Hello Jotham,

I'm sorry, I somehow missed this comment when you posted it:

jotham wrote:British websites say the second conditional is used for present and future. This must be an American-British difference.

I haven't come across this difference between AmE and BrE before. Could I just check: for you, if I say

1. If you sold them on eBay, you'd make twice as much.

it can have present reference, but not future (e.g. next week)?

Best wishes,

MrP

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 6:16 am

1. If you sold them on eBay, you'd make twice as much.

it can have present reference, but not future (e.g. next week)?

?? For me it can have future reference. It's a Timeless or All Time utterance (then, now and in the future).

MrPedantic · Post by **MrPedantic** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 11:59 am

Thank you for that, metal56.

For me, the example could have a present or future application; or the reference could be to no particular time. But it would not be applicable to the past.

Are you a BrE or an AmE speaker?

MrP

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 12:12 pm

I'll GASP chime in on metal's side here and say that 'If you sold them on eBay, you'd make twice as much' could be used to refer to the past. The 'you' would be generic, and the 'them' referring to many goods sold over a long period of time, not just a couple of specific items to be sold on one specific occassion (in the latter context, the 'would' would be more now-and-future-oriented and hypothetical rather than descriptive of repeated events in the past/"reminiscing" about the benefits eBay as opposed and implicitly compared to other potential avenues which were presumably also tried at some point, which explains the conditional and comparative).

MrPedantic · Post by **MrPedantic** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 12:44 pm

Thanks very much, FH – I see what you mean about "repeated events in the past".

All the best,

MrP

JuanTwoThree · Post by **JuanTwoThree** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 5:57 pm

Jotham et al. I can't imagine that there's an AmE problem with "You'd get more money if you sold it on Ebay in six months time".

What about this?

Do you remember when I used to sell my old books to a shop?

Yes but I also remember that if you sold them on ebay you'd make twice as much.

BTW

For an excellent though soppy example of "would" for past habit there's "Dance with my Father" by Luther Vandross:

Back when I was a child, before life removed all the innocence
My father would lift me high and dance with my mother and me and then
Spin me around ‘til I fell asleep
Then up the stairs he would carry me
And I knew for sure I was loved
If I could get another chance, another walk, another dance with him
I’d play a song that would never, ever end
How I’d love, love, love
To dance with my father again
When I and my mother would disagree
To get my way, I would run from her to him
He’d make me laugh just to comfort me
Then finally make me do just what my mama said
Later that night when I was asleep
He left a dollar under my sheet
Never dreamed that he would be gone from me
If I could steal one final glance, one final step, one final dance with him
I’d play a song that would never, ever end
‘Cause I’d love, love, love
To dance with my father again
Sometimes I’d listen outside her door
And I’d hear how my mother cried for him
I pray for her even more than me
I pray for her even more than me
I know I’m praying for much too much
But could you send back the only man she loved
I know you don’t do it usually
But dear Lord she’s dying
To dance with my father again
Every night I fall asleep and this is all I ever dream

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 4:28 am

MrPedantic wrote:Thank you for that, metal56.

For me, the example could have a present or future application;

I see. Why did you write this?

it can have present reference, but not future (e.g. next week)?

re: If you sold them on eBay, you'd make twice as much.

... But it would not be applicable to the past.
Why? How about this?

You'd go to him, every time he called.

Are you a BrE or an AmE speaker?
BrE, with a touch of IrE.

MrP

JuanTwoThree · Post by **JuanTwoThree** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 5:28 am

Before we get confused with all this quoting:

Metal56, I think Mr P was questioning Jotham's assertion when Mr P asked:

"Could I just check: for you (Jotham), if I say

1. If you sold them on eBay, you'd make twice as much.

it can have present reference, but not future (e.g. next week)?"

based on Jotham's:

"British websites say the second conditional is used for present AND future. This must be an American-British difference."

So Mr P is the wrong person to go after. BTW that's what I was driving at in my:

"Jotham et al. I can't imagine that there's an AmE problem with "You'd get more money if you sold it on Ebay in six months time"

That if=when=whenever=every time is a bit of a red herring because the

"if=when=whenever=every time you sold them on ebay you would=used to make twice as much "

is a so-called zero conditional placed in the past, more or less, and the "sold" and your "called" are a different baby.

jotham · Post by **jotham** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 5:58 am

Mr. Pedantic,
Your sentence sounds okay, and probably because I can't really bifurcate in my mind a present-past distinction in your sentence since I can always think of it as present. But Juan's sentence forces an awareness of this past-present dichotomy, so I'll address it.

You'd get more money if you sold it on Ebay in six months time.

When I casually skim over the sentence, I'm not bothered or jolted by it, but it clearly isn't a sentence I would ever catch myself writing, saying, or consciously teaching. I think the unnaturalness to me can be best demonstrated in a dialogue:
Could I get a lot of money for this item?
If you sold it in six months. (giving it time to rise in value)
I think that I, and most other Americans, would be more inclined to say "if you sell it in six months." But again, it doesn't necessarily startle me when I hear it the other way.

JuanTwoThree · Post by **JuanTwoThree** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:56 am

Could is different. Remote modals can also be used when non-remotes can be used:

If I sell this car, I can/could/shall/should/may/might/must/will (8/9 modals, all except would) make a lot of money.

but non-remotes can't be used when the remotes can:

If I sold this car, I would/could/should/might (4/9) make a lot of money.

Of course there are all those situations where politeness etc breaks these "rules".

However, do any of these these ring true for you?:

If I sold this car next week, I will/can /may/shall/must make a lot of money.

because if none do and you don't care for "would" there then your options are reduced to "could/might/should" which simply don't t mean "would" and can be used in so-called 1st and 2nd conditionals alike anyway.

I find this very hard to believe. Can you say how you would use the main verb here:

If I were you, I (sell) your car next spring.

???

jotham · Post by **jotham** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 1:23 pm

I'm not sure I understand where you're going. In your sentence, I would say, "If I were you, I would sell your car next spring." I wouldn't use will. I just wouldn't ever say "If I sold your car next spring."

JuanTwoThree · Post by **JuanTwoThree** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:41 pm

I see what you mean: I thought you objected to 2nd conditionals with a future meaning:

"British websites say the second conditional is used for present and future. This must be an American-British difference"

but the issue is in fact a future time marker in the "if" part and not a second conditional used in its enirety to refer to the future?

jotham · Post by **jotham** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 2:59 am

No, I still think if we are truly thinking in the future (without a future marker), we wouldn't use the second conditonal sold. We'd probably say were to sell, or just sell.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:33 am

jotham wrote:No, I still think if we are truly thinking in the future (without a future marker), we wouldn't use the second conditonal sold. We'd probably say were to sell, or just sell.

Here's an interesting present + past example from Time magaizine:

Do I owe gains tax if I sold without meeting the two-year requirement?

Could this not have future reference in AmE?

If we sold out on our principles, we would regret it.

JuanTwoThree · Post by **JuanTwoThree** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:06 am

Jotham, don't think I'm hounding you but it would be very interesting if AmE really had a different concept from BrE of irrealis in the future.

This is googling exact phrase match "If I went tomorrow" from US pages only:

http://www.google.es/search?lr=&cr=coun ... 8&oe=UTF-8

which makes me wonder if your reluctance to use Type 2 conditionals with a future meaning is a personal stricture of your own, your idiolect in other words. Or a regional issue. Not that there's anything wrong with either, of course. But it doesn't seem to bother either the NYT or Lorraine in Charlottesville.

It's just that this is not mentioned anywhere as far as I can see. I've worked with Americans who have never mentioned it and it seems to have surprised us BrE posters.

In fact googling for exact phrase "2nd conditional" or "type 2 conditional" from US sites only does reveal many references to future uses.

For example, this impeccably AmE site (they think the past participle of get is gotten, the poor misguided souls

):

www.englishpage.com

and on this page:

http://www.englishpage.com/conditional/ ... ional.html

it says:

"Future Unreal Conditional
FORM 1 (Most Common Form)
[If ... Simple Past ..., ... would + verb ...]

[... would + verb ... if ... Simple Past ...]

Notice that this form looks the same as Present Unreal Conditional.

USE
The Future Unreal Conditional is used to talk about imaginary situations in the future. It is not as common as the Future Real Conditional because English speakers often leave open the possibility that anything MIGHT happen in the future. It is only used when a speaker needs to emphasize that something is impossible.

Examples:

If I had a day off from work next week, I would go to the beach.
I don't have a day off from work.
I am busy next week. If I had time, I would come to your party.
I can't come.
Jerry would help me with my homework tomorrow if he didn't have to work.
He does have to work tomorrow."

It goes on to mention plans with continuous forms, which raises a question:

Would you be prepared to say "I am not going out next weekend, but if I were (was) going out next weekend , I wouldn't want to meet you" and if not, what?