Dialect?
Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 9:52 am
Can dialect be defined without explaining, comparing to or having some firm idea of the Standard?
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Dialect?
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Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 4:36 pm
Yes. "Standard" is just another dialect, albeit a more prestigious and well known one. One of the first things I was taught on my Linguistics degree was that everyone speaks a dialect of some kind. BBC continuity announcers from the 1950s spoke a dialect. "Dialect" in no way means "different from the standard"
Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 7:22 am
Maybe things are different in the USA. I've heard that your British standard is much less common as a unifying accent, in actuality, than in the USA. This seems to be semantics, but perhaps it might be better to say that there is no standard UK, but that which is officially forced, or artificial. The top people just sanctioned the use of one of its many dialects. In the USA, the mid-West accent, though it isn't spoken by a majority of Americans, is spoken by a plurality of Americans, which gives credence to its standard category. This is only talking about pronunciation differences. If you were defining Standard in terms of grammaticability (such as use of might could) and not just pronunciation, Standard is definitely in the majority by a long shot. Our East Coast represents the diversity in accents you find common in the U.K.; but as you go westward, they just seem to combine into a melting pot. Many say that our Mid-West accent sounds like you don't come from anywhere. In other words, our Southerners, or others, are more unlikely to consider the Mid-West accent a dialect as would be the case in the UK; they would more readily recognize it as Standard, and their own as a dialect, when looking at the macro view. If they are in Mississippi, however, and looking from a local view, someone with a Boston accent living amongst them might be viewed as an outsider, at first — because the southern accent is still considered standard for being in the South.
Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 9:38 am
Were/are that plurality not the most powerful economically and politically?In the USA, the mid-West accent, though it isn't spoken by a majority of Americans, is spoken by a plurality of Americans, which gives credence to its standard category.
Is your definition of "dialect" only based on accent differences?Another words, our Southerners, or others, are more unlikely to consider the Mid-West accent a dialect as would be the case in the UK; they would more readily recognize it as Standard, and their own as a dialect, when looking at the macro view.
Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 12:32 pm
I don't see how US/GB (and Australia, New Zealand, Canada, South Africa) come into definitions of dialect. Many of the lecturers on my Linguistics courses were American and they all said the same thing - everyone speaks a dialect of some kind. The term "dialect" encompasses accent, grammar, vocabulary, the lot.
Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 10:36 pm
Not for everyone, Lolwhites.The term "dialect" encompasses accent, grammar, vocabulary, the lot.
Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 2:51 pm
For linguists (by which I mean professionals in the field of linguistics) it certainly does! Here's Wikipeida's definition:Not for everyone, Lolwhites.
A dialect (from the Greek word διάλεκτος, dialektos) is a variety of a language used by people from a particular geographic area....
A dialect is a complete system of verbal communication (oral or signed, but not necessarily written) with its own vocabulary and grammar....
Varieties of language such as dialects, idiolects and sociolects can be distinguished not only by their vocabulary and grammar, but also by differences in phonology (including prosody). If the distinctions are limited to phonology, one often uses the term accent of a variety instead of variety or dialect.
(my emphasis)
Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 pm
Are the people at Wikipeida linguists?For linguists (by which I mean professionals in the field of linguistics) it certainly does! Here's Wikipeida's definition:
Wordnet:
S: (n) dialect, idiom, accent (the usage or vocabulary that is characteristic of a specific group of people) "the immigrants spoke an odd dialect of English"; "he has a strong German accent"; "it has been said that a language is a dialect with an army and navy"
........
And note the "or" here:
dialect A variety of a language distinguished by variations of accent, grammar, or vocabulary.
http://highered.mcgraw-hill.com/sites/0 ... ssary.html
Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 4:40 pm
As I understand it, they get experts in various fields to moderate articles, so I would imagine the page in question has been looked at by linguists. I'm not sure the same can be said of Wordnet, though let me know if I'm wrong.Are the people at Wikipeida linguists?
In any case, it was linguists who taught me that dialect included grammar, vocabulary and pronunciation. The fact that Harry down the pub says "dialect" when he means accent is neither here nor there, though it's reasonable to expect a dictionary to honestly report that he does. However, this is an AL forum so I (naively) assumed we'd be using the term in the sense linguists used it, not in some vague, Humpty Dumptyesque "words mean what I want them to mean" way.
Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 5:18 pm
Quote:
Another words, our Southerners, or others, are more unlikely to consider the Mid-West accent a dialect as would be the case in the UK; they would more readily recognize it as Standard, and their own as a dialect, when looking at the macro view.
Is your definition of "dialect" only based on accent differences?
Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 5:26 pm
Are McGraw-Hill linguists?And note the "or" here:
dialect A variety of a language distinguished by variations of accent, grammar, or vocabulary.
http://highered.mcgraw-hill.com/sites/0 ... ssary.html
Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 5:53 pm
I've checked out Wordnet so it certainly has linguistics credentials. However, it simply shows how words are used - I don't deny that not everyone uses the word "dialect" in the sense linguists do, and since Wordnet reflects use, it probably doesn't get us very far with how we, as linguists, should use the term in our discussions.
Note another Wikipedia quote, about Wordnet:
Note another Wikipedia quote, about Wordnet:
Because it groups similar words together under a single, general definition, the definitions WordNet provides for most individual words are not accurate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WordNet
Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 12:01 am
And I would agree with them - though in the US it seems there is a tendency to focus only on accent variation when defining the word"dialect".In any case, it was linguists who taught me that dialect included grammar, vocabulary and pronunciation.
Lots of Humpty Dumptyesue behaviour gets more air time than most linguists do.However, this is an AL forum so I (naively) assumed we'd be using the term in the sense linguists used it, not in some vague, Humpty Dumptyesque "words mean what I want them to mean" way.
Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 3:00 am
Um, I doubt they are the most powerful economically. The South, I heard is a third of the American economy. New York certainly has a lot of economic pull. As for politics, the Mid-West seems more bent towards the Republican party, if that's what you mean, but they haven't always held the sway of politics in history, even if today they may have.metal56 wrote:Were/are that plurality not the most powerful economically and politically?In the USA, the mid-West accent, though it isn't spoken by a majority of Americans, is spoken by a plurality of Americans, which gives credence to its standard category.
Well, I think I made my distinction clear. If talking about accents, the Mid-West is a plurality. When talking about grammaticability, Standard American is a majority and incorporates the Mid-West accents, Southern accents, New York accents, etc. Our language is much more unified than in the UK, so we are often reduced to talking about accents when talking of our differences, i.e., "dialect," but certainly real differences in grammar do occur, such as Appalachian and Ebonics. (Are there any others?)Is your definition of "dialect" only based on accent differences?
Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 7:50 am
Maybe it's time for another great fall! If not, well if you can't beat them, you still don't have to join them.Lots of Humpty Dumptyesue behaviour gets more air time than most linguists do.