According to Jennifer Jenkins, in her book World English, the lack of acceptance of non-standard native forms of English seems to have connections with race, in the US, and with class, in the UK.
Would you also say that it seems that way?
Race, US: class, UK.
Moderators: Dimitris, maneki neko2, Lorikeet, Enrico Palazzo, superpeach, cecil2, Mr. Kalgukshi2
No, what she really means is that most of those who indulge in non-standard forms in the US are from a certain minority race, if talking about ebonics. English of other minority races (Asian, Hispanic [now first-largest minority]) don't have a recognizable dialect. It also doesn't take into consideration the equal disdain for non-standard forms of Appalachian, which is spoken by certain members of the majority race. No, Americans don't encourage standard English (in professional or academic environments) because they're racist; it's because they're pro-education, pro-professional, and pro-excellence no matter what skin color.
Prominent American black comedian, Bill Cosby:
Prominent American black comedian, Bill Cosby:
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/ ... i_n6181314Cosby said during his speech: "People marched and were hit in the face with rocks to get an education, and now we've got these knuckleheads walking around....The lower-economic people are not holding up their end in this deal. These people are not parenting. They are buying things for their kids--$500 sneakers, for what? And won't spend $200 for Hooked On Phonics."
Cosby also said: "I can't even talk the way these people talk: 'Why you ain't, Where you is' ... And I blamed the kid until I heard the mother talk. And then I heard the father talk. Everybody knows it's important to speak English except these knuckleheads. You can't be a doctor with that kind of cr-- coming out of your mouth."
-
Stephen Jones
- Posts: 1421
- Joined: Sun May 18, 2003 5:25 pm
As jotham has made clear, class is equally important in the States; however, as the US is an immigrant society, then class and race are often interchangeable.
And of course the asinine comments of both Cosby and jotham show that ignorance of the most elementary precepts of socio-linguistics is independent of race and social dialect.
And of course the asinine comments of both Cosby and jotham show that ignorance of the most elementary precepts of socio-linguistics is independent of race and social dialect.
No, you're drawing the wrong conclusion. You are concluding that everyone from a certain race or economic status is helplessly stuck with a dialect so the rest of us should just accept it as inevitable and forget education. But education is what equalizes people and diminishes differences in race or economic status for those who embrace it.So everyone else gets the chance to be a doctor, right?
Everyone has a chance to be a doctor; proof of that is the fact that we have doctors of every race. Those doctors know and are expert at standard English and aren't limited to or stuck with ebonics, even though they may be familiar with and expert at it as well.
We are an immigrant society, and descendants of Italians, Irish, Scottish, Germans, French, Koreans, Chinese, Japanese, Hispanic — they all speak standard English. Those who try to assimilate themselves to the society they live and intend to live in, whether language, education, or effort, do well and above well. Often it's our immigrants who come to the US to embrace opportunity denied them in their own countries that do much better than our own regular citizens. It's mostly a matter of attitude and not origins or language background. Yes, they can hold you back from those of a Standard English background, but if you embrace education and take the effort, you'll overcome.Stephen Jones wrote:As jotham has made clear, class is equally important in the States; however, as the US is an immigrant society, then class and race are often interchangeable.
Last edited by jotham on Fri Aug 10, 2007 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
No one's concluding any such thing. You have heard of bidialectalism, haven't you?You are concluding that everyone from a certain race or economic status is helplessly stuck with a dialect so the rest of us should just accept it as inevitable and forget education.
Now that is the most naive statement I've ever heard you make.But education is what equalizes people and diminishes differences in race or economic status for those who embrace it.
How much of their "success" is due to the support of your regular citizens?Often it's our immigrants who come to the US to embrace opportunity denied them in their own countries that do much better than our own regular citizens.
You sound as if you really do believe that. Do you often play "Follow your Dream"?Yes, they can hold you back from those of a Standard English background, but if you embrace education and take the effort, you'll overcome.
Last edited by metal56 on Fri Feb 09, 2007 11:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
If you believed in bidialectalism, you wouldn't have said what you said about everyone else [except blacks] getting chance to be a doctor because they can speak Standard English. I assumed that you didn't believe in bidialectalism, or that it isn't practical, or isn't ethical, or isn't worthy, and so we must forget this kind of education.metal56 wrote:No one's concluding any such thing. You have heard of bidialectalism, haven't you?You are concluding that everyone from a certain race or economic status is helplessly stuck with a dialect so the rest of us should just accept it as inevitable and forget education.
Take this out of the emotional sphere and put it in a more logical one so I can respond.But education is what equalizes people and diminishes differences in race or economic status for those who embrace it.
Now that is the most naive statement I've ever heard you make.
Often it's our immigrants who come to the US to embrace opportunity denied them in their own countries that do much better than our own regular citizens.
How much of their "success" is due to the support of your regular citizens?
I don't understand your question. What kind of support from citizens are you referring to?
If you believed in bidialectalism, you wouldn't have said what you said about everyone else [except blacks] getting chance to be a doctor because they can speak Standard English.
My beliefs have nothing to do with it. You made a somewhat naive statement about the "powers" of Standard English being the key to the perfect career. My reply was stating that there is much more to becoming a doctor than speaking Standard English.
Your assumptions were incorrect.I assumed that you didn't believe in bidialectalism, or that it isn't practical, or isn't ethical, or isn't worthy, and so we must forget this kind of education.
Last edited by metal56 on Sat Feb 10, 2007 9:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
If you believed in bidialectalism, you wouldn't have said what you said about everyone else [except blacks] getting chance to be a doctor because they can speak Standard English.
My beliefs have nothing to do with it. You nade a somewhat naive statement about the "powers" of Standard English being the key to the perfect career. My reply was stating that thre is much more to becoming a doctor than speaking Standard English.
Your assumptions were incorrect.I assumed that you didn't believe in bidialectalism, or that it isn't practical, or isn't ethical, or isn't worthy, and so we must forget this kind of education.
So, you believe in bidialectalism, do you? Please tell me which US schools, alongside teaching Standard English, are helping students to learn to use their "mother" dialect well.
Last edited by metal56 on Sat Feb 10, 2007 9:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
-
Stephen Jones
- Posts: 1421
- Joined: Sun May 18, 2003 5:25 pm
The Cosby article is quite against bidialectalism, or disglossia. He is attacking the black parents for speaking their mother tongue with their children at home, and with a fellow black they can reasonably presume capable of understanding it.If you believed in bidialectalism, you wouldn't have said what you said about everyone else [except blacks] getting chance to be a doctor because they can speak Standard English. I assumed that you didn't believe in bidialectalism, or that it isn't practical, or isn't ethical, or isn't worthy, and so we must forget this kind of education.
-
Stephen Jones
- Posts: 1421
- Joined: Sun May 18, 2003 5:25 pm