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Agents without will.
Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 5:05 am
by metal56
Do you use such as these - where no agent possessed of will is in control of the event?
If this rain will just hold off, I can cut the grass.
If my car will start, we can go to the countryside.
If this stupid lid will open..arghh, We can get at the cookies!
Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 6:36 am
by fluffyhamster
Yes, I have no doubt that I have done and still do, but I'm wondering if I and perhaps others might have a preference for 'would' rather than 'will'; then there's possibly additions that get made along the lines of 'If only this damn/****ing...'.
Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 7:10 am
by metal56
<but I'm wondering if I and perhaps others might have a preference for 'would' rather than 'will'; >
What would be the difference in using "would" there?
And would you do this:
If this rain would just hold off, I can cut the grass.
or this:
If this rain would just hold off, I could cut the grass.
Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 8:42 am
by fluffyhamster
Actually I was more thinking about the car and lid examples, and sort of forgot about the rain one. With 'will' (and 'can'), the rain has momentarily stopped and the speaker is hoping that the clear period will hold, but with 'would' (and 'could'), it sounds as though the rain has not actually yet stopped (though it may have done briefly once or several times previously that day), hence the remote form to signal unlikelihood.
Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 8:51 am
by lolwhites
Metal's examples are fine to my ear, but I think the use of
will makes them sound a bit anthropomorphic, as if the rain, car and lid were being stubborn. I'm reminded of Basil Fawlty thrashing his car with a branch
Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 9:27 am
by metal56
Metal's examples are fine to my ear, but I think the use of will makes them sound a bit anthropomorphic, as if the rain, car and lid were being stubborn.
LOL! What about "When does the shop open?"
Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 9:30 am
by metal56
fluffyhamster wrote: With 'will' (and 'can'), the rain has momentarily stopped and the speaker is hoping that the clear period will hold, but with 'would' (and 'could'), it sounds as though the rain has not actually yet stopped (though it may have done briefly once or several times previously that day), hence the remote form to signal unlikelihood.
I agree. So, why would you prefer "would" with the car and lid examples? And why do you imagine others would also prefer "would" in such examples?