I'm sometimes surprised, and somewhat puzzled, when I read linguistics papers written by nonnative speakers. The use of language in such articles can often range for highly proficient to quite poor. The linked text below is an example of such puzzlement. In that paper simple errors appear alongside proficient use of the language. I wonder how such a thing can occur. I wonder how a nonnative can have such skilled use of one part of the language and still make basic errors. I also wonder how such errors passed the scrutiny of the editors.
EG
"Nattinger (in Carter and McCarthy, 1998:76) suggests that language is basically a "compositional" process in which many of its words co-occur together forming single units of meaning. He call these as lexical phrases or word combinations;"
Another:
Grammatical collocations consist of a noun, or an adjective or a verb... . The followings are examples: at night, extend to"
http://jurnal-humaniora.ugm.ac.id/do...rio%20rini.pdf
Proficiency alongside "poverty".
Moderators: Dimitris, maneki neko2, Lorikeet, Enrico Palazzo, superpeach, cecil2, Mr. Kalgukshi2
Proficiency alongside "poverty".
Last edited by metal56 on Thu Jul 19, 2007 8:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
Why are you so surprised?
I've done translation for years, so know some of the industry secrets!
I'd found basic errors on the Quebec provincial government website a couple years back (and who knows, maybe they're still there). This is the website of the government of the second most populous province of a nation one of the official languages of which is English and in which more than half the population speaks English as a mother tongue!
Welcome to the world of translation and interpretation.
I remember a conference in Beijing in 2004. One of the guest speakers was a retired interpreter for the UN General assembly. And here's how he distinguished between an experienced interpreter and an inexperienced one:
An experienced interpreter knew when to let go and move on to the next sentence, while an inexperienced one would dwell on an unknown word until he'd lose the whole paragraph. And these are supposedly the best in the world, the ones our diplomats, responsible for keeping peace in the world, rely on!
I remember likewise serving as impromptu interpreter at a conference from English to... English! All I'd done was repeat what the others were saying. As it turned out, the Chinese interpreter, while able to understand my Canadian accent, could not understand the Pakistani, Cameroonian, and Australian accent, at least at the beginning of the speach.
I've found plenty of errors on various Chinese government and some European academic websites too.
Well, hey, at least we mother-tongue speakers can speak it well! That's all that matters
I've done translation for years, so know some of the industry secrets!
I'd found basic errors on the Quebec provincial government website a couple years back (and who knows, maybe they're still there). This is the website of the government of the second most populous province of a nation one of the official languages of which is English and in which more than half the population speaks English as a mother tongue!
Welcome to the world of translation and interpretation.
I remember a conference in Beijing in 2004. One of the guest speakers was a retired interpreter for the UN General assembly. And here's how he distinguished between an experienced interpreter and an inexperienced one:
An experienced interpreter knew when to let go and move on to the next sentence, while an inexperienced one would dwell on an unknown word until he'd lose the whole paragraph. And these are supposedly the best in the world, the ones our diplomats, responsible for keeping peace in the world, rely on!
I remember likewise serving as impromptu interpreter at a conference from English to... English! All I'd done was repeat what the others were saying. As it turned out, the Chinese interpreter, while able to understand my Canadian accent, could not understand the Pakistani, Cameroonian, and Australian accent, at least at the beginning of the speach.
I've found plenty of errors on various Chinese government and some European academic websites too.
Well, hey, at least we mother-tongue speakers can speak it well! That's all that matters
You seem to focus more on interpreting for you examples, there, Machjo. The on-the-spot demands of such a profession are not the same as the demands of the article or papers writer, I imagine. I've come across very few native speaker academic papers that have the same amount of errors as those found in the paper mentioned above.
True. But the Quebec government website example still stands as 'written'.metal56 wrote:You seem to focus more on interpreting for you examples, there, Machjo. The on-the-spot demands of such a profession are not the same as the demands of the article or papers writer, I imagine. I've come across very few native speaker academic papers that have the same amount of errors as those found in the paper mentioned above.
So, do we blame the English teacher, the writer, the secretary or the editor, there?Machjo wrote:True. But the Quebec government website example still stands as 'written'.metal56 wrote:You seem to focus more on interpreting for you examples, there, Machjo. The on-the-spot demands of such a profession are not the same as the demands of the article or papers writer, I imagine. I've come across very few native speaker academic papers that have the same amount of errors as those found in the paper mentioned above.
I'll give a tongue-in-cheek answer:metal56 wrote:So, do we blame the English teacher, the writer, the secretary or the editor, there?Machjo wrote:True. But the Quebec government website example still stands as 'written'.metal56 wrote:You seem to focus more on interpreting for you examples, there, Machjo. The on-the-spot demands of such a profession are not the same as the demands of the article or papers writer, I imagine. I've come across very few native speaker academic papers that have the same amount of errors as those found in the paper mentioned above.
They're all to blame!
The English teacher is to blame for not having ensured that these future translator, writer, secretary and editor never learnt English properly (after all, English is compulsory for all in Quebec's highschools).
The writer should not have been so lazy in highschool. Had he studied hard, there would have been no need for a translator.
The secretary should have been less lazy in highschool too; then she could have cought and corrected the faults.
The editor should have known English too.
And of course the translator is at fault too.
OK, on a more serious note, we have to look at it from a larger cultural perspective.
As for science articles, I'm sure most editors would rather edit work done by native speakers (less to correct). But I'm sure you could see how this could lead to certian injustices. This also leads to another question: who should pay for the translation, from the standpoint of justice; the English-speakers who'll benefit from it, or the non-native speakers who want it translated? There's an obvious imbalance here. By the way, I've met linguists who could barely speak English yet had many brilliant ideas to contribute. Luckily, others ensure their work gets translated. But I'm sure you'd agree that a so-so English linguist has an advantage over the reasonably good non-native speaker (no translation costs involved, and people respect his lack of language errors).
Now as for government websites, in Canada I was wholly private sector, so I don't know how it works there in government. But in the rivate sector, I was getting pretty good pay, and a job still waiting for me.
Here in China, I'm public sector, not so good pay, part time work (and teaching to supplement, along with writing a book, or should I say series), but a learning experience (why I'm here).
Here in China, one problem is the sheer shortage of Chinese translators in less-spoken languages a (euphemism for anything other than English, and maybe Japanese and Korean, and maybe Russian). As a result, they must sometimes rely on English as a bridge language from which documents are to be translated to many other languages.
Their budget does not allow for many high-quality translators, so to compensate, they hire a crew of incompetents and a small handful of qualified editors. This creates all kinds of inefficiencies and backlogs, with the editors too busy to edit everything.
From this standpoint, I would blame, ultimately, administrative incompetence. If they were smart, they'd translate into a more ideal first language. If the language is easier, then the Chiense could learn it to fluency in a short period of time. This would allow for the development of more human resources at lower cost, which would spill over in the ability to find and retain human resources at reasonable cost too.
The ease-of-learning of the ideal language would allow the translator to master it (which is seldom the case with English).
This ease-of-learning would mean also that people in other countries could master this language in a short time too (after all, the Chinese are not the only ones failing to learn English on a massive domographic scale), thus allowing them to then translate a perfect translation from the ideal language to their mother tongue, again at relatively low cost. High quality translation at low cost. What more could one want?
Unfortunately, the administration, both public and private sector, is seldom bilingual itself, and is usually not open to recommendations from translators even when the translators speak with a unanymous voice.
As a rule, we translators are generally perceived as nothing more than extremely expensive but indispensable secretarial staff that knows nothing of the realities of business (which is a gross generalization).
I'll give a tongue-in-cheek answer:
They're all to blame!
The English teacher is to blame for not having ensured that these future translator writers, secretary and editors never learnt English properly (after all, English is compulsory for all in Quebec's highschools).
Excuse me for saying so, but isn't it you alone who is responsible for your usage errors on this forum? It seems to me that your teachers may have equipped you with the tools to help you write good English, but it is you who needs to pay careful attention to your use here, isn't it? There is no secretary or editor here. So, were you lazy in highschool?The secretary should have been less lazy in highschool too; then she could have cought and corrected the faults.
The writer should not have been so lazy in highschool. Had he studied hard, there would have been no need for a translator.
If I tried to sell you a car that was not running well or had damage and told you that you had to pay for the repairs if you wanted to buy it, what would you say?This also leads to another question: who should pay for the translation, from the standpoint of justice; the English-speakers who'll benefit from it, or the non-native speakers who want it translated?
I see. So the reason for the errors in the above paper/article can be put down to lack of funds, right?Their budget does not allow for many high-quality translators, so to compensate, they hire a crew of incompetents and a small handful of qualified editors. This creates all kinds of inefficiencies and backlogs, with the editors too busy to edit everything.
I sympathise. We English teachers are also often seen as an unwelcome expense.As a rule, we translators are generally perceived as nothing more than extremely expensive but indispensable secretarial staff that knows nothing of the realities of business (which is a gross generalization).
Excuse me for saying so, but isn't it you alone who is responsible for your usage errors on this forum? It seems to me that your teachers may have equipped you with the tools to help you write good English, but it is you who needs to pay careful attention to your use here, isn't it? There is no secretary or editor here. So, were you lazy in highschool?
Pardon my laziness. It seems on a forum, for me the rule changes to 'the faster, the better'. Bad forum decorum?
If I tried to sell you a car that was not running well or had damage and told you that you had to pay for the repairs if you wanted to buy it, what would you say?
It depends on whether I think it's worth the extra repairs.
I see. So the reason for the errors in the above paper/article can be put down to lack of funds, right?
I don't know. It's just a possibility I presented based on my own past experiences in other organizations.
[/quote]
I sympathise. We English teachers are also often seen as an unwelcome expense.[/quote]
I'll edit my previous post.... and try to change my attitude to forums in future. I must say though, that once I start typing, unless it's at work, I'm generally not too concerned... until someone points out my embarrassing errors.
Pardon my laziness. It seems on a forum, for me the rule changes to 'the faster, the better'. Bad forum decorum?
If I tried to sell you a car that was not running well or had damage and told you that you had to pay for the repairs if you wanted to buy it, what would you say?
It depends on whether I think it's worth the extra repairs.
I see. So the reason for the errors in the above paper/article can be put down to lack of funds, right?
I don't know. It's just a possibility I presented based on my own past experiences in other organizations.
[/quote]
I sympathise. We English teachers are also often seen as an unwelcome expense.
[/quote] I'll edit my previous post.... and try to change my attitude to forums in future. I must say though, that once I start typing, unless it's at work, I'm generally not too concerned... until someone points out my embarrassing errors.
metal56 wrote:I'll give a tongue-in-cheek answer:
They're all to blame!
The English teacher is to blame for not having ensured that these future translator writers, secretary and editors never learnt English properly (after all, English is compulsory for all in Quebec's highschools).Hey, interesting. In Esperanto, it's common to use the plural 'these' followed by a list of singulars counted collectively. And 'cought' is misspelt due to suggestion from 'cough', the vowelling of which I pronounce the same way. Needless to say, if a person speaks a few languages and is typing away casually like Speedy Gonzales, interference will occur. And even without a second language! After all, 'cought' was from interference not from another language, but from another word in English itself.The secretary should have been less lazy in highschool too; then she could have cought and corrected the faults.
I remember teaching some teachers one day, and interference crept in. I was focussing on what I was saying while writing something else on the board. I spelt a whole sentence phonetically, more or less
No problem. I too am guilty of such. But, maybe we can say the same of certain nonnative academic authors. I've also seen interviews with academics and politicians who have a great command of academic and formal English and also who also seem to have a most "educated use" vocabuary. Yet, the same people often make major errors in using, or omitting, articles, the progressive aspect, the third person singular, and native collocation. I ask myself how that "dichotomy" came about.Pardon my laziness. It seems on a forum, for me the rule changes to 'the faster, the better'. Bad forum decorum?
How would I do the same with a linguistics article from some relatively unknown Chinese professor? If he/she wants to circulate his/her ideas in the world of linguistics at large, he/she should do the work or foot the bill of/for translation, right?It depends on whether I think it's worth the extra repairs.
I'm generally not too concerned... until someone points out my embarrassing errors.
Don't worry too much about it: eye doe tha same sumtines.
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Anuradha Chepur
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Lack of awareness about the finer aspects of the language, basically, though otherwise fluent. Or out of their repertoire.
Other famous redundancy errors:
advance forward
revert back
join together
repeat again
compete together
the time when
the place where
The last two are used commonly by even native speakers.
Other famous redundancy errors:
advance forward
revert back
join together
repeat again
compete together
the time when
the place where
The last two are used commonly by even native speakers.