Respect

revel · Post by **revel** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:21 am

deleted

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:31 am

Are we able to respect one another for our various and sundry experiences as teachers?

It depends on what you call disrespect. I feel many of your posts contain a subtle, mocking, disrespect for anyone who does not teach prescriptive grammar. You may disagree, but it's there nevertheless.

And, as for myself, I DO have no respect for prescriptive grammarians. So where does that leave us?

Well, it leaves you crying for sympathy, for one. Fluff does the same. Gets all bossy, arrogant, disrespectful, mocking and then cries out to be shown respect. I have no time for such, and if you find me doing the same, i.e. crying to Daddy, slap me round the head with a cucumber.

Sally Olsen · Post by **Sally Olsen** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:03 pm

As in any good debate, attack the ideas not the person. Be nice and please keep posting, all of you.

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:27 pm

The problem Sally is that often the ideas (or lack, haziness etc thereof) are attacked in an unnecessarily blunt manner, which is pretty unforgivable when the grumpy old git doing the attacking is hardly known for sticking his neck out to present very original or striking ideas himself in the umpteen threads "he" starts.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:59 pm

Sally Olsen wrote:As in any good debate, attack the ideas not the person. Be nice and please keep posting, all of you.

Nice politics. If only the US government would heed your call.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:00 pm

fluffyhamster wrote:The problem Sally is that often the ideas (or lack, haziness etc thereof) are attacked in an unnecessarily blunt manner, which is pretty unforgivable when the grumpy old git doing the attacking is hardly known for sticking his neck out to present very original or striking ideas himself in the umpteen threads "he" starts.

Aw, Fluff's got something to say again. These are your best threads, Fluff.

Stephen Jones · Post by **Stephen Jones** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:16 pm

jeez, only ten of us, and still a catfight.

I must say, metal does often manage to be ruder than I am, which is quite an achievement.

On the particular thread revel is referring to, I do think metal was right though.

lucy lace · Post by **lucy lace** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:12 pm

I find metal's tone and aggressive manner so toxic and unkind, I rarely post anything. I appreciate that he prods discussion with his original postings, but his snide and sarcastic and condescending reactions to those who respond are not worth wading through.

Thank you, revel, for having the courage to say in a RESPECTFUL manner what we all think: Metal is an arrogant ***hole.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:12 pm

I must say, metal does often manage to be ruder than I am, which is quite an achievement.

I've been working at it, watching Fluff, learning, and picking up a few tips from you, I must admit.

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:13 pm

<I appreciate that he prods discussion with his original postings, but his snide and sarcastic and condescending reactions to those who respond are not worth wading through. >

Love you too.

Of course, Lucy, you wouldn't find the comment below disrespectful or snide, right?

Perhaps, probably, they are interchanged by people who live in areas where the interchange is accepted or by people who slept during English class in HSH, or where the majority of people are immigrants who have learned English as a second language and have not dominated the subtlety of the use of the two “tenses”.

Lorikeet · Post by **Lorikeet** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 7:22 am

I've pretty much always let things roll, although I must admit Metal's posts tend to make me wince more than others. On the one hand, he starts a lot of interesting threads which make for some lively discussion and some good thinking. On the other hand, he tends to regularly attack people in those threads, which makes a lot of people decide not to post and to stay away. I, too, would really appreciate it if there were fewer of what I interpret to be personal attacks. (No, I do not interpret the last comment you posted as an example of a personal attack.)

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 8:36 am

On the one hand, he starts a lot of interesting threads which make for some lively discussion and some good thinking. On the other hand, he tends to regularly attack people in those threads, which makes a lot of people decide not to post and to stay away.

If you delete that personal attack, it will be one less. I love these threads. They bring out the hypocrite in so many members.

"Ooo! He's worse that me" or "he started it!"and such nonsense. Give it a break folks!

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 10:19 am

metal56 wrote:
On the one hand, he starts a lot of interesting threads which make for some lively discussion and some good thinking. On the other hand, he tends to regularly attack people in those threads, which makes a lot of people decide not to post and to stay away.
If you delete that personal attack, it will be one less. I love these threads. They bring out the hypocrite in so many members.

"Ooo! He's worse that me" or "he started it!"and such nonsense. Give it a break folks!

I've said before how your not seeming to be able to take a joke once started the bad blood between us two at least (you began popping up on my threads to add absolutely nothing other than insults, to which I responded in like manner).

Now it may appear to you that I (and everyone else) are hypocrites, but that still leaves what is pretty much the majority of regular posters expressing reservations here and on numerous older threads about your general behaviour.

The fact is, you never get off your high horse (actually it is not that high, believe me) for long, and that is totally inimical to discussion (assuming there's something actually worth discussing being flogged by you), but you just don't seem to get it.

Anyway, have a nice time on Anthrax Island along with like-minded playmates such as Hannibal "The Cannibal" Lecturer (so-called for cannibalizing sources and never cooking up a decent meal himself for anyone) and Chomsky (when they finally discover everything he's mangled).

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 11:51 am

Well, I('ve) re-read that 'American moves' thread and am not really sure what Metal's position is. Metal's taking revel to task for teaching present perfect (and it surely occurs enough still in American English), even though Metal has voiced quite open disgust with/intolerance for American English forms previously, and defended the continued use and value of present perfect. Somehow that doesn't quite all add up. Argument for argument's sake? Is there any actual consistency in Metal's views let alone his teaching?

Who really knows. Are we to assume that Metal will in fact teach American English if and when it has demonstrably pushed out other forms of English everywhere, or would he cling to dying or extinct forms. Again, your guess is as good as mine.

All that ultimately matters though is just what YOU, the individual teacher thinks through and decides (assuming you are getting on with your own research), regardless of what the bully pulpit element here on Dave's is telling you to do.

Note also that the quote that Metal made above, which one could easily assume is from Lucy's writing, is in fact from Revel's. So shoot him for saying that some people might be unaware of certain usages (that's not quite the same thing as saying that they absolutely have to learn, master and then unfailingly use such usages, is it - he did mention "interchange(d)", after all, interchangeability, which would imply he accepts he can't affect such usage outside his classroom even if he really indeed doesn't favour it (or is even rabidly against it!!!)).

metal56 · Post by **metal56** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 1:55 pm

I've said before how your not seeming to be able to take a joke once started the bad blood between us two at least (you began popping up on my threads to add absolutely nothing other than insults, to which I responded in like manner).

There it is, that Fluffy "He started it, sir" whinge.

Metal's taking revel to task for teaching present perfect (and it surely occurs enough still in American English),

Obviously, you still haven't read that thread.

Is there any actual consistency in Metal's views let alone his teaching?

Obviously, you still haven't read that thread.

Go read it and try, unlike revel, to answer the question posed. If you can answer it without going into the rights and wrong of it - and, yes, I have feelings about the form myself, but they have, at this moment, nothing to do with the question posed - then we can talk. If, instead, you want to go on a wilf Revel-type prescriptivist rant, why not save it for another thread?

I've been forumming for years and noticed that when folks want to discuss the loss or decline of certain forms, the prescriptivist bullies crawl out of the pulp pile. They will block every opportunity to discuss the reasons behind language change.

When such knobheads try to restrict me, I kick back. Like it or lump it , Fluff.