61 very important words

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woodcutter
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61 very important words

Post by woodcutter » Mon Mar 03, 2008 6:37 am

There are precisely 61 words that are very basic units representing concepts present in every language, and these words can be translated smoothly into any other language. True or false?

These 61 words are as follows:

substantives
I, YOU, SOMEONE, PEOPLE, SOMETHING/THING, BODY
mental predicates
THINK, KNOW, WANT, FEEL, SEE, HEAR, BE
speech
SAY, WORD, TRUE
actions, events and movement
DO, HAPPEN, MOVE, PUT, GO
existence and possession
THERE IS, HAVE
life and death
LIVE, DIE
time
WHEN/TIME, NOW, BEFORE, AFTER, A LONG TIME, A SHORT TIME, FOR SOME TIME, MOMENT
space
WHERE/PLACE, HERE, ABOVE, BELOW; FAR, NEAR; SIDE, INSIDE; TOUCHING
"logical" concepts
NOT, MAYBE, CAN, BECAUSE, IF
intensifier
VERY
augmentor
MORE
quantifiers
ONE, TWO, SOME, ALL, MANY/MUCH
evaluators
GOOD, BAD
descriptors
BIG, SMALL, (LONG)
taxonomy, partonomy
KIND OF, PART OF;
similarity
LIKE
determiners
THIS, THE SAME, OTHER

engteacher
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Post by engteacher » Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:23 pm

I think you are referring to Natural Semantic Metalanguage. The whole idea of some basic universal meanings is interesting to say the least. It's a theory, a logical one with some convincing evidence to support it.

The 61 Semantic Primitives exist and that makes them true. I don't think it's an issue of true or false, but rather if you agree or not.

blackmagicABC
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Location: Taiwan

Post by blackmagicABC » Mon Mar 03, 2008 5:00 pm

I agree that I exist as concepts but I disagree that they can be easily translated into any language.
You said you speak Chinese. How would you for example translate "be" into Chinese and ensure that the meaning remain intact. The concept remains the same but the translation is not that simple.

woodcutter
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Post by woodcutter » Tue Mar 04, 2008 4:28 am

The prize goes to Engteacher, yes, I am referring to NSM.

http://www-personal.une.edu.au/~cgoddard/#model

They are very keen on this at the University of New Wombats, (it is big in Australia in general I think) and we had to take these concepts very seriously there. Like Blackmagic though, I think you could quibble endlessly about whether all 61 appear in smoothly translatable form in a particular language (though "shi" in Chinese seems OK for be?).

The part that really makes some people squirm, though, is "cultural scripts"

The classic example of this (given in the link) is an explanation of "amae" in Japan. If you are not familiar with the emotional feeling "amae" though, I think you will find it hard to learn what it is from the following semantic prime based explanation. (Also, I think there needs to be some better way to see how and when it applies to particular people, rather than merely saying that all Japanese carry this script in their heads)

X felt amae =

X felt something because X thought something

sometimes a person thinks something like this:

"when Y thinks about me, Y feels something good

Y wants to do good things for me

Y can do good things for me

when I am with Y nothing bad can happen to me

I don't have to do anything because of this"

when this person thinks this, this person feels something good

X felt something like this

because X thought something like this

blackmagicABC
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Post by blackmagicABC » Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:35 am

woodcutter wrote:
Like Blackmagic though, I think you could quibble endlessly about whether all 61 appear in smoothly translatable form in a particular language (though "shi" in Chinese seems OK for be?).
It would translate very smoothly if you are only translating one word. Unfortunately language doesn't work like that.
Ta bu gao is relevant to the concept but the word (be) is absent.
Ta dzai fan dian would also not allow for smooth translation.
I agree with what you said and I do think it is acurate as for the existence of concepts but not for smooth translation.
I should also say that I am by no means an expert on these matters. I have briefly read about NSM but that does not make me an expert.

woodcutter
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Post by woodcutter » Tue Mar 04, 2008 6:06 am

For the purposes of the NSM viewpoint I think you only have to be able to find a general single word equivalent, no matter if there will sometimes be two sentences expressing the same thing in 2 languages in which only one of a pair of equal words will actually be used.

It seems to me though that there would be times where you couldn't easily identify the prime though. Spanish has two copulas, for example?

Since we learned this stuff for "intercultural communication" the focus was on the scripts, I'm certainly no expert either.

blackmagicABC
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Post by blackmagicABC » Tue Mar 04, 2008 6:16 am

Well now I am interested. Maybe I should read some more.
Any good books you(or engteacher) could suggest (that you have read or know the author)
For example on the site you posted which do you recommend?

Stephen Jones
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Post by Stephen Jones » Tue Mar 04, 2008 6:42 am

Interesting. The point is that it is only one meaning of the English words that is the semantic prime, so polysemy and difficulties in translation become irrelevant.

woodcutter
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Post by woodcutter » Tue Mar 04, 2008 6:57 am

Here's a drawback to online study I hadn't envisaged - people might ask searching questions about books!

We generally worked with flurries of articles. Anna Wierzbicka and Cliff Goddard both have some introductory stuff for all online, I think.

(Google Goddard Cultural Scripts)

blackmagicABC
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Post by blackmagicABC » Tue Mar 04, 2008 3:55 pm

woodcutter wrote:Here's a drawback to online study I hadn't envisaged - people might ask searching questions about books!


LOL.
I am an old fashioned guy. Most of my books are in electronic format. I'll check the articles. Thanks.

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