'a sound sleep' - why?

grammar_is_tricky · Post by **grammar_is_tricky** » Tue May 20, 2008 8:26 pm

Hi all,
I am just wondering why we say '[a] sound sleep'? Why do we use the indefinite article (or any article) in this phrase. I have a student asking me to explain this and I am stuck. Articles are so tricky.
Thanks

Macavity · Post by **Macavity** » Tue May 20, 2008 10:09 pm

Maybe using the article strengthens the idea of a particular period of sleep.

I slept soundly last night and feel better for it.

I had a sound sleep last night and feel better for it.

sleeping soundly is the key to good health.

sound sleep is the key to good health.

The third and fourth sentences here have a more general feel about them than the first two.

grammar_is_tricky · Post by **grammar_is_tricky** » Tue May 20, 2008 10:13 pm

My student is arguing that 'sleep' is usually an uncountable noun....and therefore shouldn't need an article....? Do I just respond by saying in this instance it is functioning as a countable noun?
Thanks!

Stephen Jones · Post by **Stephen Jones** » Tue May 20, 2008 11:30 pm

Do I just respond by saying in this instance it is functioning as a countable noun?

Yes. Just hope he doesn't ask you why, if this is so, that *two good sleeps is ungrammatical.

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Tue May 20, 2008 11:43 pm

Well, has your student looked beyond the first entry of their dictionary? Or taken a look at 'nap' instead, for example? There's surely nothing mysterious about something "uncountable" (and is it a noun, or a verb, a bird, or a plane) being thought of (delimited? Even when 'sound'?!) as a particular instance.

woodcutter · Post by **woodcutter** » Tue May 20, 2008 11:44 pm

Is it ungrammatical? I have had a couple of good sleeps during the past few lessons I have "taught". The students have had a lot of good sleeps.

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Tue May 20, 2008 11:57 pm

I just Googled "two sleeps" and found this:

COOK'S ESKIMOS MADE MAP.; Told Peary They Went Only "Two Sleeps" from Land.

Special to The New York Times. SYDNEY, N.S., Sept. 18. -- "When you receive this," read a message received to-night from Commander Peary, dated at Battle Harbor, "I shall be coming to you every minute." The operator at Battle Harbor added that the Roosevelt sailed at 8 o clock this morning. A brisk northerly wind is blowing and this should at] the vessel in her run down the Labrador and Newfoundland coasts. The distance from BattJle Harbor t9 Sydney is 450 miles. If favorable weather; m continues the vessel may be expected { Tuesday afternoon. i Ilnder steam alone she can hardly make more than seven knots an hour, but sails set to a favorable wind sh would I doubtless reel oft at least two knots more. The St. John's Chronicle publishes what purports tb be an interview had by a special correspondent with Peary and Bartlett at Battle Harbor. In this article appears the following: "With respect to the Cook controversy Peary and Bartlett say hat Cook on his arrival at Etah in April last _Informed Harry Whitney, the muskox hunter, who wintered there, and BOatswain Inrphy, who was in charge of leary s depot of supplies at the same place, that he had reached the pole on April 21, the previous year, with his two Eskimos Etukishook and _ . "After Cook left Etah to continue to Melville-Bay to Upernavlk, the Danish settlement in Southern Greenland, these Eskimos remained in Etah and when Peary came south and cross-examined them, the natives who had previously confirmed Cook's story, broke and admitted that they had only gone 'two sleeps' from the land, and[ m that they had never been out of eight ofI m Cape Columbia at all. "They drew a ort of plan on paper if-{ ' for Pears, how they had tray-; e/ed."

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Wed May 21, 2008 12:01 am

Hmm, sounds like your lessons are right voyages of discovery, woody! 'Men, I mean guys, we are only two sleeps away from the Final Lesson!'

ouyang · Post by **ouyang** » Wed May 21, 2008 1:15 am

Your student makes a very good point. He or she deserves to be commended for the thoughtful analysis. "Sleep" is an uncountable noun, but language is bad about not obeying rules.

The indefinite article is normally not used for "sleep". "I need some sleep". I agree that there is nothing ungrammatical about delimiting uncountable nouns with certain adjective phrases, although I can't think of many other examples. e.g. a wild rice, an impressive work of art, a hard rain.

I saw ten thousand talkers whose tongues were all broken,
I saw guns and sharp swords in the hands of young children,
And it's a hard, and it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard,
And it's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Wed May 21, 2008 1:53 am

ouyang wrote:I agree that there is nothing ungrammatical about delimiting uncountable nouns with certain adjective phrases, although I can't think of many other examples. e.g. a wild rice, an impressive work of art, a hard rain.

Some examples from learner dictionaries:

a good knowledge of French
a sadness that won’t go away (a2, OALD7 online)

I only have a limited knowledge of Spanish.
He has a great love of music.
There was a fierceness in her voice. (a4, CALD online)

Candidates must have a good knowledge of chemistry. (a10, LDOCE4 online)

I would say that this is related to examples like 'Use a good cheese to make the sauce' (a11, LDOCE4 online), but there have been quite a few discussions already about the wobbliness of the /[C] "divide" in relation to the more concrete nouns at least.

lolwhites · Post by **lolwhites** » Wed May 21, 2008 12:40 pm

A lot of "uncountable" nouns can have a countable meaning, and vice versa. Your student needs to reflect on what "a sleep" actually means in context rather than putting the word in a box marked "uncountable" and dismissing any other usage as "wrong".

@ouyang - language is very good at obeying rules, it's just very bad at obeying the artificial, oversimplified rules you find in lot of grammar books!

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Mon Aug 31, 2009 8:38 pm

Actually, isn't this '(have) a sound sleep' ultimately just a potential instance of a delexical(ized) verb that is then simply modified by an adjective (with this adj+noun pair an apparent collocation)? To sleep > (have) a sleep > (have) a sound/good sleep. I mean, we don't bat an eyelid at 'have a shower', 'go for a walk' etc etc.

Just out of interest:
http://forums.eslcafe.com/teacher/viewtopic.php?t=6638

Heath · Post by **Heath** » Tue Sep 01, 2009 3:16 am

It's common for parents to say things like this to children:

"Only five sleeps until Christmas."
"Just two more sleeps until the holidays."
"Three more sleeps and we're off to Disneyland!"

It's a very limited context, and unless some of you confirm it's used elsewhere, it might be regional to Australia & New Zealand (I've heard it used in both countries)... but it seems sleep can be used in a countable way here.

Also, think about words like "sixth sense", where, it is clearly countable ("She has a sixth sense when it comes to her children") but (nearly) always occurs only in the singular form. Even if "three sleeps" sounds odd, like "three sixth senses" that doesn't make it uncountable.

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'a sound sleep' - why?

'a sound sleep' - why?

Only 5 sleeps until Christmas!