Hi guys, I am looking for some articles in well known publications that put an end to the question(s) How long will it take to learn a langauge well, or how long will it take to be fluent in English, or why can't I learn faster, etc. Especially if the student is not taking classes everyday, some of my students only have class with me once a week, but expect to be fluent in a week.. It isn't going to happen, but this an extreme case. I am just looking for something that will assure them that they are not alone.
I get tired of my students asking me this question, especially when it is a one on one class. I have constantly told them that learning a langauge simply takes time and patience, etc. But of course some of them feel frustrated and want to give up.
I do recommend books to my students.
If anyone has any websites that I can go to to print off some articles it would be much appreciated... I have found some things but they are not in well known publications and the articles are less than a page.
Thanks in advance!
How long does it take to master a language questions?
Moderators: Dimitris, maneki neko2, Lorikeet, Enrico Palazzo, superpeach, cecil2, Mr. Kalgukshi2
Re: How long does it take to master a language questions?
Don't get tired.jesl wrote:Hi guys, I am looking for some articles in well known publications that put an end to the question(s) How long will it take to learn a langauge well, or how long will it take to be fluent in English, or why can't I learn faster, etc. Especially if the student is not taking classes everyday, some of my students only have class with me once a week, but expect to be fluent in a week.. It isn't going to happen, but this an extreme case. I am just looking for something that will assure them that they are not alone.
I get tired of my students asking me this question, especially when it is a one on one class. I have constantly told them that learning a langauge simply takes time and patience, etc. But of course some of them feel frustrated and want to give up.
I do recommend books to my students.
If anyone has any websites that I can go to to print off some articles it would be much appreciated... I have found some things but they are not in well known publications and the articles are less than a page.
Thanks in advance!
People need to know the parameters of their learning to make the most of it.
If you don't know where you are going or how long it is going to take, you will naturally lose motivation, and get angry.
They have a right to know and as their teacher you have a duty to find out.
It is good you are finding out.
'Tis a hard ol' job.
-
JuanTwoThree
- Posts: 947
- Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 11:30 am
- Location: Spain
Here's some ammunition for you. It's from Cambridge but I don't know what the research they've done is. Each of the early level jumps seems to involve about 200 hours of study. Though its worth pointing out that these hours have to be balanced between the skills and taken fairly seriously by teacher and student:
KET
Cambridge Key English Test KET (Key English Test) is an elementary level examination, at Council of Europe level A2. Candidates can think of taking the exam after 180-200 hours of study and is half way towards the Preliminary Examination in English (PET ). The examination tests basic communication skills in everyday situations and is suited to students of 13 and older.
PET
Cambridge Preliminary English Test The PET is an examination at Council of Europe level B1. It test the student's ability at a pre-intermediate level (after about 375 hours of study). PET is a step away from the much better known First Certificate of English.
FCE
Cambridge First Certificate in English The FCE (First Certificate of English) is an examination at the Council of Europe B2 level (approximately 600 hours of study).
The FCE is intended for candidates who need to certify their level of English as making them independent in everyday life.
CAE
Cambridge Certificate in Advanced English The CAE is an examination at the Council of Europe C1 level (approximately 1000 hours of study).
This examination certifies that the candidate can use English effectively in complex situations and is recognised by many universities.
I think these hours are on the high side, maybe because I'm such a wonderful teacher, or because Spanish to English is not such a distance.
Here's a link to some research:
http://www.cal.org/resources/Digest/levelgain.html
I can't comment on its conclusions because I haven't read it!
KET
Cambridge Key English Test KET (Key English Test) is an elementary level examination, at Council of Europe level A2. Candidates can think of taking the exam after 180-200 hours of study and is half way towards the Preliminary Examination in English (PET ). The examination tests basic communication skills in everyday situations and is suited to students of 13 and older.
PET
Cambridge Preliminary English Test The PET is an examination at Council of Europe level B1. It test the student's ability at a pre-intermediate level (after about 375 hours of study). PET is a step away from the much better known First Certificate of English.
FCE
Cambridge First Certificate in English The FCE (First Certificate of English) is an examination at the Council of Europe B2 level (approximately 600 hours of study).
The FCE is intended for candidates who need to certify their level of English as making them independent in everyday life.
CAE
Cambridge Certificate in Advanced English The CAE is an examination at the Council of Europe C1 level (approximately 1000 hours of study).
This examination certifies that the candidate can use English effectively in complex situations and is recognised by many universities.
I think these hours are on the high side, maybe because I'm such a wonderful teacher, or because Spanish to English is not such a distance.
Here's a link to some research:
http://www.cal.org/resources/Digest/levelgain.html
I can't comment on its conclusions because I haven't read it!
I don't want to give the wrong impression, I am not lazy.
I understand that students want to know, but how they ask sometimes makes me feel that they do not have the motivation to really learn, they just want it handed to them, they don't want to come to class every week, they don't want to study at home by themselves, and still expect a miracle, we all know that is not possible.
I cannot control their full learning process, they must study by themselves also, not just rely on the teacher.
Thank you JuanTwoThree, I will read that article and see what I can get out of it. I appreicate your help and information.
I understand that students want to know, but how they ask sometimes makes me feel that they do not have the motivation to really learn, they just want it handed to them, they don't want to come to class every week, they don't want to study at home by themselves, and still expect a miracle, we all know that is not possible.
I cannot control their full learning process, they must study by themselves also, not just rely on the teacher.
Thank you JuanTwoThree, I will read that article and see what I can get out of it. I appreicate your help and information.
It is not a case of wanting to know it is more a case of needing to know.jesl wrote:I don't want to give the wrong impression, I am not lazy.
I understand that students want to know, but how they ask sometimes makes me feel that they do not have the motivation to really learn, they just want it handed to them, they don't want to come to class every week, they don't want to study at home by themselves, and still expect a miracle, we all know that is not possible.
I cannot control their full learning process, they must study by themselves also, not just rely on the teacher.
Thank you JuanTwoThree, I will read that article and see what I can get out of it. I appreicate your help and information.
Having clear objectives is absolutely mandatory for effective learning.
You seem to be blaming the students and putting too much responsibilty on them.
You are their teacher and their learning is your responsibility.
It is your job to motivate them.
Why are they bored in your classes?
Try to understand them.
Why are you teaching if you don't like it?
Last edited by mesomorph on Sat Sep 13, 2008 1:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Wow what interesting things have come out of my posts...
Not blaming the students at all. But it is the responsibility of the student to ask questions and do their homework. Indeed the teacher has a lot of responsiblity also, and indee dhave clear objectives. I am not arguing that at all. Yes, it is my job to motivate them, but after years of teaching, some students just don't do what they should, even though I have. I love teaching! Wow, did I give the impression I did not?! I have been teaching for over 10 years as a matter of fact and I love it, but I do find certain students frustrating. I have some students who do everything I ask them and I am amazed at how well they are doing. The students I am after here are those who don't want to do more for themselves and relay 100% on the teacher, this method doesn't work. Sure I need to find more ways to motivate them, but in the end, I will give up the student rather than be frustrated all the time. Thus, my reasonf or asking for some articles that learning takes time and that it does not happen overnight. I am not bored in the classes at all, but do wonder sometimes why some students are constantly asking why they don't improve quickly... Quickly was the key to my whole post and the reason I posted... Learning a language is different for everyone, some are fast, some are slow, etc. But they need to understand that.
Not blaming the students at all. But it is the responsibility of the student to ask questions and do their homework. Indeed the teacher has a lot of responsiblity also, and indee dhave clear objectives. I am not arguing that at all. Yes, it is my job to motivate them, but after years of teaching, some students just don't do what they should, even though I have. I love teaching! Wow, did I give the impression I did not?! I have been teaching for over 10 years as a matter of fact and I love it, but I do find certain students frustrating. I have some students who do everything I ask them and I am amazed at how well they are doing. The students I am after here are those who don't want to do more for themselves and relay 100% on the teacher, this method doesn't work. Sure I need to find more ways to motivate them, but in the end, I will give up the student rather than be frustrated all the time. Thus, my reasonf or asking for some articles that learning takes time and that it does not happen overnight. I am not bored in the classes at all, but do wonder sometimes why some students are constantly asking why they don't improve quickly... Quickly was the key to my whole post and the reason I posted... Learning a language is different for everyone, some are fast, some are slow, etc. But they need to understand that.
-
Sally Olsen
- Posts: 1322
- Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2004 2:24 pm
- Location: Canada,France, Brazil, Japan, Mongolia, Greenland, Canada, Mongolia, Ethiopia next
Since you do have students who progress well, perhaps you can introduce them to the less motivated students and have the better students give the newer students their formula for success and share their frustrations.
We had successful candidates from the year before come to our class once a week for a question and answer period (in English). It showed the new students that it could be done, the successful candidates were not smarter than they were, the former students had the same pressures on them in their daily lives, and the solutions they had found for learning. The old students gave the new students many valuable hints and strategies. We had a number of old students come so that students with different style of learning could see that there were many ways of learning English.
We had successful candidates from the year before come to our class once a week for a question and answer period (in English). It showed the new students that it could be done, the successful candidates were not smarter than they were, the former students had the same pressures on them in their daily lives, and the solutions they had found for learning. The old students gave the new students many valuable hints and strategies. We had a number of old students come so that students with different style of learning could see that there were many ways of learning English.
-
fluffyhamster
- Posts: 3031
- Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2004 6:57 pm
- Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again
Just thought I'd say that a lot of the Blackwell Handbook of Applied Linguistics is available for "preview" (i.e. reading by us cheapskates) on Google Book Search, as is the Blackwell Handbook of SLA. 
There are just too many variables to be able to say "you'll be fluent after X hours of teaching". What's more, it encourages students to see their teacher in the same way as they see their electrician or plumber; pay them and they'll do the job for you.
The student who thinks learning anything is simply a question of being spoon-fed information is never going to progress beyond a basic level. And in my experience, the ones who say "I've paid so why aren't I learning?" are the same passive learners who expect you to do the hard work for them!
The student who thinks learning anything is simply a question of being spoon-fed information is never going to progress beyond a basic level. And in my experience, the ones who say "I've paid so why aren't I learning?" are the same passive learners who expect you to do the hard work for them!
-
fluffyhamster
- Posts: 3031
- Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2004 6:57 pm
- Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again
-
JuanTwoThree
- Posts: 947
- Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 11:30 am
- Location: Spain
Whilst I agree that variables such as cognates, different alphabets, motivation and a long long etcetera make any definitive length of time an impossibility I think it is useful to be able to say "Most motivated students seem to take about 200 hours to get from level/exam A to level/exam B" if only to be able to say in your own defence 100 hours later "No, I'm sorry you are not halfway there. Look at the register: you've missed a quarter of the classes. Here are the assignments/homework you didn't do. Those 8 classes when we discussed a film or book that we had agreed to see or read were a waste of time because you hadn't. I don't know what your writtten level is because you've never produced a piece of written English for me. So no, I don't think you're nearly ready."
I know an academy that makes its students sign a "contract" that they understand that the 90 hour intensive course they are about to do can only work if they "undertake to do the following:............."
I know it reduces the process to a pilot's flying time in his/her log-book but I don't think its so far from the truth, other things being equal.
Nor is it buck-passing. For my part I supply the eclectic, I hope interesting-ish, sometimes challenging sometimes light-hearted, balanced between the skills, relevant and correct-for-the-level classes, as well as my boundless enthusiasm, experience and knowledge
. But although I push, somebody has to pull.
In part I blame Wall Street (RIP) and Opening, Home English and all the other snake-oil merchants who sell the learning process like others sell time shares or slimming tea.
I know an academy that makes its students sign a "contract" that they understand that the 90 hour intensive course they are about to do can only work if they "undertake to do the following:............."
I know it reduces the process to a pilot's flying time in his/her log-book but I don't think its so far from the truth, other things being equal.
Nor is it buck-passing. For my part I supply the eclectic, I hope interesting-ish, sometimes challenging sometimes light-hearted, balanced between the skills, relevant and correct-for-the-level classes, as well as my boundless enthusiasm, experience and knowledge
. But although I push, somebody has to pull.In part I blame Wall Street (RIP) and Opening, Home English and all the other snake-oil merchants who sell the learning process like others sell time shares or slimming tea.
... and herein lies the problem...jesl wrote:Wow what interesting things have come out of my posts...
Not blaming the students at all. But it is the responsibility of the student to ask questions and do their homework. Indeed the teacher has a lot of responsiblity also, and indee dhave clear objectives. I am not arguing that at all. Yes, it is my job to motivate them, but after years of teaching, some students just don't do what they should, even though I have. I love teaching! Wow, did I give the impression I did not?! I have been teaching for over 10 years as a matter of fact and I love it, but I do find certain students frustrating. I have some students who do everything I ask them and I am amazed at how well they are doing. The students I am after here are those who don't want to do more for themselves and relay 100% on the teacher, this method doesn't work. Sure I need to find more ways to motivate them, but in the end, I will give up the student rather than be frustrated all the time. Thus, my reasonf or asking for some articles that learning takes time and that it does not happen overnight. I am not bored in the classes at all, but do wonder sometimes why some students are constantly asking why they don't improve quickly... Quickly was the key to my whole post and the reason I posted... Learning a language is different for everyone, some are fast, some are slow, etc. But they need to understand that.
Sally's suggestion is right on the money.
You have to reflect on your practice and implement strategies to improve it, instead of having negative feelings towards your students and giving up.
While there are many variables involved in how long it will take to become fluent it is still possible to say if you do X you will achieve Y. If you study 25-30 hours a week you will be fluent in 5-6 years.
-
JuanTwoThree
- Posts: 947
- Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 11:30 am
- Location: Spain
Yes, you can do rigorous needs analysis and adapt your practices or introduce new ones to reflect the student's needs, interests and abilities. Then you say "I will do this but you must do that".
The student doesn't do it. That's the point I think that jesl is making. We can't be beating ourselves or each other up about it. The deal is off if the student won't play.
Then either you together agree to reduce both your and the student's goals to very minimal ones: eg maintenance, only things the student wants to do but not the things that need to be done, or you say "This isn't working. I can't teach you any more. You'd better find someone else".
It's like very badly behaved kids and adolescents. I throw them out in the end. After all, I've got a waiting list. Which is nice.
The student doesn't do it. That's the point I think that jesl is making. We can't be beating ourselves or each other up about it. The deal is off if the student won't play.
Then either you together agree to reduce both your and the student's goals to very minimal ones: eg maintenance, only things the student wants to do but not the things that need to be done, or you say "This isn't working. I can't teach you any more. You'd better find someone else".
It's like very badly behaved kids and adolescents. I throw them out in the end. After all, I've got a waiting list. Which is nice.
Hopefully the teacher's giving up is not the cause of the lack of motivation.
I've seen teachers misjudge students, label them, and consequently damage their motivation and confidence as a result.
Sometimes teachers just don't understand their students needs.
Alot of teachers don't do rigorous needs analysis, adapt their practices, or introduce new ones to reflect the student's needs, interests and abilities.
One of the most stressful and time consuming aspects of teaching is identifying your students needs, reflection on your own practice and adapting to bridge the gap.
Alot of teachers just say 'he doesn't want to learn I'm giving up' without analysing their own practice or adapting.
I've seen this so many times it isn't funny.
It is hard to say 'OK I should have done this better'.
Giving up is not effective teaching.
I've seen teachers misjudge students, label them, and consequently damage their motivation and confidence as a result.
Sometimes teachers just don't understand their students needs.
Alot of teachers don't do rigorous needs analysis, adapt their practices, or introduce new ones to reflect the student's needs, interests and abilities.
One of the most stressful and time consuming aspects of teaching is identifying your students needs, reflection on your own practice and adapting to bridge the gap.
Alot of teachers just say 'he doesn't want to learn I'm giving up' without analysing their own practice or adapting.
I've seen this so many times it isn't funny.
It is hard to say 'OK I should have done this better'.
Giving up is not effective teaching.
Last edited by mesomorph on Sun Sep 14, 2008 2:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.