Fossilized Errors

[Karenne]

Do you ever have students who can't stop making the same errors over and over and over again?

What do you do about this?

Would love to know your thoughts, either here on on the blog!

http://kalinago.blogspot.com/2009/03/fo ... guage.html

Karenne

[woodcutter]

We all have large numbers of mistakes that we make all the time when learning a foreign language. We will usually grow out of most of them in the natural course of things, if we keep at it, and we get accurate input. Yet some of them are so common and frequent (or colourful!) that they come to the attention of the teacher of a large class. The teacher of the class can point them out, if they want, and in my opinion that is usually helpful, though not necessarily an instant cure. The more fuss you make, the more the students will remember, though of course you need to be careful.

A quick perusal of your blog has made me aware of the "banging on the table" strategy. Since dogme is table-free, I am confused!

[ouyang]

I think the strategy of using visual and kinesthetic prompts is good. When Chinese students invariably use "he" for "she" or vice versa, I always overreact with an expression of surprise indicating that I'm the one who has made a mistake in identifying someone's gender, before I get them to acknowledge that they have made an error.

My example error is caused by negative transfer and is made by fairly fluent students. Another key in overcoming fossilization is motivating students to bump their English up to a higher level. I think they've got to believe the class(es) they are taking can help them do that. Otherwise, they view the corrections as trivial.

[Karenne]

woodcutter,

As a semi-involved 'cult' member of the dogme-in-teaching movement, am highly amused to learn about the no-desk rule - gonna go google, where did you find that!?!

Karenne

[woodcutter]

Here is the cushion-pushing article I read.

http://www.teachingenglish.org.uk/think ... chers-view

The author doesn't do a very good job with the downside of Dogme, in my book. I would rather say the downsides are:

It is very highly dependent on the ability of the teacher.
Most teachers will have an element of "dogme" already, so it mainly subtracts massively from the variety of events already available.
Students have less chance to prepare and review the lesson.
Students may come into conflict over what should be studied, as their tastes and genuine needs may be very different.
Courses are planned in logical way for the average individual. The more individuals you have, the better the plan is likely to be compared with requested topics.

[fluffyhamster]

Just thought I should paste in the reply I made on a connected thread:

The now sadly defunct englishdroid.com had a piece parodying Dogme, in which a supposed abhorrence of anything that might act as a barrier or appear to elevate one above one's students resulted in advice to the teacher to ditch the desk and even the chair and lie on the floor in order to teach "properly". It's certainly easy to read more than was intended into the movements precepts.

( http://forums.eslcafe.com/teacher/viewt ... 0625#40625 - 'What's the best speaking lesson you've ever done?' thread, which has headed off on a Dogme tangent).

[Karenne]

Hi FH,

Yes that's taking things to extremes - the idea of dogme is basically to concentrate on the learner's needs and focus on the emergent language rather than follow the rules of snoringly dull textbooks - which sometimes, dare I say, have questionable methodology and seem only to be parodies of Headway, over and over and over, again. Much like the Hollywood monomyth Journey of the Hero...

Dogme on the otherhand is about creating a classroom that is student centered. Not that there aren't faults to the system, of course, so

Woodcutter, I like your:
It is very highly dependent on the ability of the teacher.
Most teachers will have an element of "dogme" already, so it mainly subtracts massively from the variety of events already available.

I agree 100%. Have been teaching for around 14 years and have to tell you that despite this, sometimes when you're sans book - a tough question pops up that you need to deal with on the spot. I usually can, but I often think to myself: this is not for the faint of heart .

Students have less chance to prepare and review the lesson.

That depends. Personally my take on dogme is to do a brainstorming at the start of each new semester. We decide what we're going to study, set dates and then everyone's on track for their pre & post task activities (not a fan of the word homework).

Students may come into conflict over what should be studied, as their tastes and genuine needs may be very different.

I don't see this as a problem. I encourage students to study in the way that they want to - however they want - be it via i-tunes, surfing through wikipedia, browsing youtube, reading a book, playing a game.

We always have one theme for each lesson but what they choose to prepare with/ talk about is entirely their decision.

it's fun!

[Karenne]

Another key in overcoming fossilization is motivating students to bump their English up to a higher level. I think they've got to believe the class(es) they are taking can help them do that. Otherwise, they view the corrections as trivial.

These are really great thoughts, ouyang, and I agree - what sorts of things do you do to encourage this?

Karenne
-p.s. I like the eyebrow raising thing, I do this - look kind of confused for a second - oh boy, the games we teachers have to play, eh!

[woodcutter]

But I mean inside the lesson itself. I'm shortly off to teach 34 people. If I was going to dogme it, how would all of them agree on which direction we should all take for the next hour or so?

(They already seem to dislike each other and prefer different methodology along national lines!)

[Karenne]

But I mean inside the lesson itself. I'm shortly off to teach 34 people. If I was going to dogme it, how would all of them agree on which direction we should all take for the next hour or so?

(They already seem to dislike each other and prefer different methodology along national lines!)

Hi woodcutter,

34 oh boy, that's a big class - the biggest I've done is 24.

However here are my suggestions - you could split them up into smaller groups say 5 x 6 and a 4, then give them a large piece of paper (or A3 this sheet: http://www.kalinago-english.com/cms/ima ... ssheet.pdf

Tell them that they are going to work together in order to come up with topics for your next x# of classes.

Encourage them to come up with at least 10 subjects per category.

After 20 minutes or so, extract 2 people from each group and move them into other groups, sharing what topics their groups came up that's missing on the sheets of their new groups.

After another 10-15 mins (or when you feel things are lagging) - ask for each member to read through their shared topics and to privately write in their notebooks the 4 topics they most wish they could have as discussions in your classes.

Once they've done this, go up to the board and get them to yell the topics they like - be active in soliciting - and don't try to control or extract from everyone. Put numbers next to the topics that repeat.

Put the number of lessons left on the board. i.e. If you have 10 more lessons up ahead or 15 put that. Make this a table.

Stick the 5-8 topics with the highest "hits" in a variety of random slots in your table.

Then ask the class to decide which topics should be in the rest of the slots, telling them sometimes we'll focus on business, sometimes on general English, sometimes it'll be more "personal."

After you've got the curriculum mapped out for your remaining lessons - get everyone to copy the list and add the dates for the next sessions (you do this too).

Now tell them they have to prepare for each lesson and it's up to them to bring in materials or not, or to think through what they'd like to say in each following session.

It's up to them in each class to decide if they want to do reading, if they want to write, if they just want to talk or practice grammar related to each discussion. Whatever it is they want to focus on within their mini groups, they can decide together and should prepare relevant materials
as you'll be now a moderator or coach rather than just lecturer.

I recommend using these sheets to help you monitor their emergent language (comes with video explaining how to use):
http://www.kalinago-english.com/cms/ind ... rolTM.html

xHope that's useful - do let me how it goes or you've got any q's.

Karenne

[woodcutter]

Wouldn't it be easier to say "Oh, Dogme wouldn't work well in that situation. I'd advise another approach"? Even the hardcore method school people are often open enough for that.

I'm your peer taking part in a theoretical discussion, yet you respond to me as if I'm a student. Your method makes your students into your peers. Well, I suppose that is consistent in a way.

So, speaking as a language student myself, that methodology wouldn't motivate me unless I had a great rapport with my group and they responded well to it also. I've been a teacher for a long time, and I find this situation highly unlikely (esp in Asia!). Students are not really mad keen to design the course, especially for a huge group where they have little influence. They are individual people, and the guy in the next chair would favour a different course. Even the solo student often wants the teacher to lead them. They think teachers have good insight into what needs to be learnt. Basically the only students I would imagine responding well to this would respond well to pretty much anything.

That obviously isn't your experience, but for all that you are obviously a talented "Dogme" teacher, you might wonder if you use other methods as well as other people do.

[Karenne]

Wouldn't it be easier to say "Oh, Dogme wouldn't work well in that situation. I'd advise another approach"? Even the hardcore method school people are often open enough for that.

I'm your peer taking part in a theoretical discussion, yet you respond to me as if I'm a student. Your method makes your students into your peers. Well, I suppose that is consistent in a way.

Keep your shirt on, Woody!!!

Now, you've got to realize that in the settings of a forum I'd hardly know whether or not you're a teacher with 3 days, 3 weeks, 3 months, 3 years or 30 years experience teaching English.

No offense was meant, mate, just spent the time outlining the whole spiel to be helpful.

I've taught in Asia (HK 2.5yrs) as well as in Ecuador and now here in Germany and think the whole tosh about 'this is the way that students learn here' is sometimes true and well, ya.

Next time you're walking through the city, whatever city you're in, have a look at the people around you - if they've no trouble communicating actively, passionately, profusely... then they can probably do this in class too.

In the case of some Asian nationalities, there are cultural predefined educative rules and norms, however a great deal of their shyness is also fear of speaking the language and looking like a fool (the face thing) - breaking through that barrier is well worth it.

So, yes, of course you don't have to try Dogme.

And yes, Dogme is NOT for everyone - my long drawn out answer was for the teachers who've never experimented with dogme or those who would like to stretch their wings a bit and get their students practicing fluency in an alternative way.

Karenne

[Karenne]

If you've been reading through this thread and have no idea what movie styles and Lars von Trier have to do with teaching English, here's a wrap up of the whole thing:

http://kalinago.blogspot.com/2009/05/do ... dogme.html

K

[woodcutter]

I'd like you to point to the sentence where I seem to have lost my shirt. I don't feel that I did. It is more that I am contradicting you, and I suspect that you aren't very used to it.

Asians can learn as anyone else does. That isn't the point. The point is whether a sheet of A3 paper and a methodology brain storm is going to get them excited. In general, it won't. Not at all. Nor most people.

If I can get you to say the following we will agree: "Dogme is hard work, but useful in rotten "visa schools" where a proper curriculum is impossible. I like it, but students are not usually very keen. It is good for them though, if they do throw themselves in. It should be an option available"

[JuanTwoThree]

My credentials as a long term critic/teaser of Dogme are impeccable (ask Diarmuid!) , to the extent that the Blessed Scott once called me and others "whining nay-sayers". My rather inchoate visceral objections to old school hard-core Dogme were the following:

Dogmetists tended to assume or leave the impression that only they were teaching like that, when in fact loads of people were already doing their teaching that way. In those days the faithful were a mixture of elder statesmen (traditional materials writers, CELTA and DELTA trainers among them) who had grown quite rich and successful from a system that they now suddenly eschewed and relatively inexperienced teachers for whom Dogme became a sort of cult that didn't allow them to use perfectly sensible tools and materials which otherwise, with more experience, they would have learnt to use in the mix of styles and methodologies that most experienced teachers do use. Of course bit by bit dogme did "allow" things like technology in the class-room, to the point where contemporary dogme is really no different from principled eclecticism.

Another rankle was that experienced teachers discovered that even if Dogmetists rather grudgingly admitted that they were not the sole practitioners of student-centred learning, this now had a new brand-name (Dogme) and at least new management (Thornbury and Meddings) if not new ownership (Thornbury and Meddings).

Anyway it's all ancient history, and the yahoo dogme list is now a rather moribund meeting place for fairly progressive teachers, where the use of computers, grammar activities and a whole range of things are discussed (anathemas in the old days).

The only thing is they do rather persist in the assumption that just because they put the needs of students first, then other people ipso facto don't.