I wish I did my homework before

[fluffyhamster]

Is the stuff in the last paragraph and particularly the second footnote here http://forums.eslcafe.com/teacher/viewt ... 2235#42235 a genuine and consistent difference between British and American English? (I'm assuming that it is - and for those who might not know, I'm a Brit by the way).

Edit: Actually, I've pasted the relevant stuff in below, to save referring between two threads:

'I wish I had (done)...': We can also use the concept of remoteness here too. Provided you have already established with your students that examples like 'I wish I had a million dollars (to spend)' are "remote from general, present reality" (i.e. the "Simple past" form 'had' is used instead of Simple present 'have' (NB: the actual word 'wish' is Simple present because that is where the speech act/moment of speaking itself is located)), it should be relatively easy to then introduce the parallel idea that example-forms like 'I wish I had done my homework' are "remote from past reality". (Remember that perfect aspect is the only way really to "get remote" in talking about the past - compared to the availability of the simple past aspect versus the simple present aspect seen in the above 'I wish I had a million dollars' sort of example). Further tools might be a consideration of the obviously incorrect *I wish I have a million dollars, and the different meaning that 'I wish I did my homework e.g. well i.e. to genuinely teach myself something rather than simply to satisfy others - parents, teachers etc'* (< > 'I wish I could do my homework (...)')) i.e. what the lack or non-use of the perfect aspect would convey, which echoes what I just said about "getting remote". The last thing I want to mention is don't worry about how this apparent "Past perfect" form compares to 'real' Past perfect (the latter of which is just to do with "past in the past" i.e. a temporally-generally remoter past, rather than with any "remote from past reality" - the latter sense only enters when additional words are added such as 'if' or, as we are discussing here, 'wish' >), because the meaning of wish clues us in right from the start that we are dealing with an unreal and counterfactual utterance (i.e. the 'I wish...' sentence stem/beginning is obvious extra co-text and context compared to just 'I had done/finished my homework...(by the time my friends called and invited me out)'. But if all that's a bit too brain-bending you could simply present those slightly dodgy "transformations" (perhaps with small superscript translations of "remote" and/or "unreal" or somesuch above the Simple Present > Simple past, and Simple Past > Past perfect transformed verb phrases respectively): 'I have a million dollars' > 'I wish I had a million dollars', and 'I did my homework' > 'I wish I had done my homework'. Anyway, I’ll perhaps hit my grammar books and see if they explain this better than I seem (un)able to – if so, I’ll try to get back to you with what they have to say! (Edit: They don't really add much to what I've already said! ).


*Note however that the results produced from a Google search for "I wish I did my homework" are often in the sense of 'I wish I had done' i.e. the writers seem to be Americans who have gone for Simple past rather than Past perfect! (Me, I'm British, and a fair number of the Google examples don't sit too well with my ear). There are however some examples that are sort of in-between and ambiguous (JallyJayyzus — Cursebird: What the f#@! is everyone swearing about?RT @caoimhechelon: I wish I did my homework earlier on in the holidays. Now I have to rush to get It all done before Monday. F*cking procrastination... cursebird.com/JallyJayyzus - Cached) or show a Past perfect (a reformulation almost?) rapidly following on from the Simple past (Surrey woman sues over laser facial-hair removal - VANCOUVER..."I wish I did my homework then," she said. "I really wish I had looked into it, or got a second opinion or went to a doctor." ... seecosmetics.com/.../surrey-woman-sues-over-laser-facial-hair-removal.html - Cached - Similar), but like I say, quite a few of the examples contain words or phrases like 'yesterday' or '...before...' (a subsequent implicitly if not explicitly past action, especially if there is a grammatically definite object involved: '...I bought this one' > Final thought: Doubling up of perfect would seem possible: 'I wish I'd done my homework before I'd bought this one').

Anyway, I'll try to read up on this and get back here myself if I find anything noteworthy!

[Heath]

"6 Present perfect and past simple

Both the British and the Americans use the present perfect for something in the past which is seen as related to the present. • 65(2)
GB/US: I've just met an old friend.
Dave has already eaten his lunch.
Have you ever seen St Paul's Cathedral?
I've never had a passport.

But Americans sometimes use the past simple in such contexts especially with just,
already, yet, ever and never.
Mainly US: I just met an old friend.
Dave already ate his lunch.
Did you ever see the Empire State Building?
I never had a passport."

This is from Eastwood's "Oxford Guide to English Grammar" (which I think is great).

(As far as I'm aware...) In Aussie and NZ people only use the Present Perfect too (as in the UK). Although it has been a while since I've been back home, so I hope US TV Shows aren't having the same effect on Perfect in Aussie English as Microsoft Word spell checkers are having on our spelling of -ise/-ize words. At least it appears that they use either in the US, and it's not 100% Past Simple.

[fluffyhamster]

Yes, an analogy (sharp or vague depends) can probably be drawn/discerned/understood between 1) Present perfect versus Simple past usage, and 2) Past perfect versus Simple past usage (i.e. Americans might prefer using the preterite to both Present and Past perfect forms). But I can find little or no mention (not explicit, anyway!) of an (the?) apparent difference of 2) in addition obviously to 1) (which is quite well documented) in any of the books I've browsed (mainly the CGEL, COBUILD, Chambers, Swan, Leech, and yes, Eastwood!). But again, maybe one (the teacher at least) is assumed able to extend certain principles by processes of analogy.

[Heath]

Hmm... I need to read things more carefully (it's the computer screens that do it to me). I think I completely missed what you were looking at. Either that or I 'analogised' without realising it. Sorry Fluffy.

[fluffyhamster]

No prob, Heath! (I'm not always the easiest of writers at the best of times, and some of the stuff I read isn't exactly as clear as could be either!).

[denjl]

Hi fluffy,

AmE checking in here. Heath is right that BrE uses the present perfect in situations where AmE would more often use the past simple; as he says, especially with the JEANY words (just, ever, always, never, yet- but for some quirky reason less often with "just now").

However, the example you gave is simply ungrammatical in AmE. The reason is that if it is in the past, the speaker is describing "non-reality in the past"; in this case a regret about something that didn't happen in the past, a situation that needs the past perfect.

The alternative you give, "I wish I did my homework" doesn't express the same time frame, as it could refer to a recurring situation: like the present simple tense, expressing a habit or regular occurence. Here it has a present or future meaning (Swan, Practical English Usage).
I wish I did my homework every time it was assigned. Then I wouldn't get so many detentions.
I wish I did my homework with pencil instead of pen, because my notebook is always a mess when I correct it.

Hope this helps. It's not grammatical AmE, in any case!

Jenny

[fluffyhamster]

Welcome to the forums Jenny, and thanks for the reply! (It's good to have AmE checking in! ).

Hmm, I'm not sure if this can be called ungrammatical absolutely ("Surely it's a usage that must be accounted for!" cry the staunch-to-distraction descriptivists), but the "needs" of the speaker/writer in this sort of instance (i.e. the "efficiency" of having one form fulfilling two functions apparently) could certainly be making decoding that bit less easy for the listeners/readers. (Then again, meaning can usually be worked out from context, and perhaps it's only (us) linguist types who really pause and ponder "what was meant"!).