Business English in Germany
Moderators: Dimitris, maneki neko2, Lorikeet, Enrico Palazzo, superpeach, cecil2, Mr. Kalgukshi2
Larry, I can't argue with what you have said, as I agree with it; teachers and trainers should take opportunity to improve themselves. Self-reflection is always a good idea, I just don't think that loss of students is necessarily a reason to change everything you do. In the meantime, until the next interesting debate, thanks for the compliment.
Thank you
...for your insight.
I agree with both of you.
Fortunately, I haven't had too many students leaving so I must be doing something right after all.
On another note, I was teaching American culture in a class, and happened to mention that the US is perhaps the most diverse country in the world. Some German students disagreed and said that Germany was equally diverse,if not more.
It so happened that this student emailed me about how hurt she was that I criticized her country and that she felt I was anti-European.
Well, I sent her a detailed response of why I made the above statement, and because I do feel that its true. However, I apologized if I had said anything untoward and hurt her feelings in the interim.
Is it terrible if a teacher apologizes?
Is it your place as a teacher to tell your students not to take such things so personally?
I don't know...but I know that as a human being, I would've apologized to her and moved on.
I agree with both of you.
Fortunately, I haven't had too many students leaving so I must be doing something right after all.
On another note, I was teaching American culture in a class, and happened to mention that the US is perhaps the most diverse country in the world. Some German students disagreed and said that Germany was equally diverse,if not more.
It so happened that this student emailed me about how hurt she was that I criticized her country and that she felt I was anti-European.
Well, I sent her a detailed response of why I made the above statement, and because I do feel that its true. However, I apologized if I had said anything untoward and hurt her feelings in the interim.
Is it terrible if a teacher apologizes?
Is it your place as a teacher to tell your students not to take such things so personally?
I don't know...but I know that as a human being, I would've apologized to her and moved on.
-
LarryLatham
- Posts: 1195
- Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2003 6:33 pm
- Location: Aguanga, California (near San Diego)
Should teachers never apologize?
Heavens no!!!Is it terrible if a teacher apologizes?
It's even hard for me to imagine why you ask, to tell the truth, Ann. Having lived and taught in Asia for several years, I recall hearing this, or some varient of it, from people there, but I never bought into it, and apologized many times to my students, individually and collectively in class and out. (I must have made a lot of mistakes). 
Never once have I been sorry for doing so. Teachers certainly are human and so are students. Mistakes are inevitable. Apologies are tailor-made for them. ...and then, as you suggest, move on. 
Larry Latham
-
LarryLatham
- Posts: 1195
- Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2003 6:33 pm
- Location: Aguanga, California (near San Diego)
Yeah, Ann,...some students see that as a weakness in an authoratitive figure and don't respect the class or the teacher thereafter.
That's what people in Asia were telling me. But I just don't buy it because it doesn't square with my personal experience. Teachers in Asia, in particular, are suppose to be authority figures. Most of the time, a Chinese teacher will not apologize, no matter how blatant an error he or she has committed, for fear of not being respected by the students. In my experience, quite the opposite is true. My Chinese students clearly respected my willingness to admit a mistake and move on. Unless I simply read their reactions wrongly (which I highly doubt) their respect for me grew. Everywhere, in any culture, a person who blunders and then refuses to admit it is subject to ridicule. The absurdity of it is clear to all.
Larry Latham
asia vs. germany
.... very briefy
I was always amazed how respectful and polite ALL my Asian students were in comparison to German students
more later gotta go n' teach
siân
I was always amazed how respectful and polite ALL my Asian students were in comparison to German students
more later gotta go n' teach
siân
Students
Hi Ann!
No need for nightmares they are punctual, respectful and expect you to very competent and efficient.
Siân
PS I am writing a series about Germany on my website
http://www.fun2learnmore.de/modules.php ... =0&thold=0
Siân
No need for nightmares they are punctual, respectful and expect you to very competent and efficient.
Siân
PS I am writing a series about Germany on my website
http://www.fun2learnmore.de/modules.php ... =0&thold=0
Siân
Apologies
I think the ability to apologise or admit you don’t know how to do something is very important. I agree with Larry, nothing is more ridiculous than a teacher pounding away at a blatant mistake. If a student asks me something I honestly don’t know, I say “I’m sorry, I’m afraid I don’t know the answer and I’d prefer not to guess. I’ll look it up and get back to you.” I make a note of it, look up the answer and, in the next class, I go through it with my student, taking time to share it with the class if I think it’s pertinent. I have found that students really respect me for this and like it when I give their query personal attention, thought and time. Don’t get flustered, don’t b***sh*t or invent stuff off the top of your head. You can’t know *everything* so don’t pretend you do.
In the case of business students, I think their tolerance level is often lower. OK, so you don’t know what a LAN is but can they tell what you what the future perfect progressive is? No? Okay, then you’re quits! On the other hand, you have to remember that the company is paying a lot of money for the courses and the results have to come quick (I have had business English students whose job hung in the balance – become proficient in English or look for another job! You can imagine how stressful that is) so as a teacher you are obliged to be very well-prepared and know your stuff. I remind students that I am, first and foremost, a language teacher and cannot be expected to have the specialized knowledge and expertise that they have in their line of business. Of course, I say that in a much nicer way and have them explain terms and processes to ME. So we both learn something!
Someone suggested this in another thread: do a needs analysis with your business students. Devise a curriculum so they can see what will be covered and approximately when (i.e. if you are going to look at writing e-mails on the 4th April, you can remind them beforehand to think about, e.g. typical starting and finishing phrases, examples of the types of e-mails they get at work etc. This gives the students the opportunity to think about the questions they always wanted to ask!) This gives students a feeling of ‘success’ – they can tick off the areas they have already covered and have an overview of what is to come. In other words, you make learning an almost ‘business-like’ procedure.
In the case of business students, I think their tolerance level is often lower. OK, so you don’t know what a LAN is but can they tell what you what the future perfect progressive is? No? Okay, then you’re quits! On the other hand, you have to remember that the company is paying a lot of money for the courses and the results have to come quick (I have had business English students whose job hung in the balance – become proficient in English or look for another job! You can imagine how stressful that is) so as a teacher you are obliged to be very well-prepared and know your stuff. I remind students that I am, first and foremost, a language teacher and cannot be expected to have the specialized knowledge and expertise that they have in their line of business. Of course, I say that in a much nicer way and have them explain terms and processes to ME. So we both learn something!
Someone suggested this in another thread: do a needs analysis with your business students. Devise a curriculum so they can see what will be covered and approximately when (i.e. if you are going to look at writing e-mails on the 4th April, you can remind them beforehand to think about, e.g. typical starting and finishing phrases, examples of the types of e-mails they get at work etc. This gives the students the opportunity to think about the questions they always wanted to ask!) This gives students a feeling of ‘success’ – they can tick off the areas they have already covered and have an overview of what is to come. In other words, you make learning an almost ‘business-like’ procedure.
-
Norm Ryder
- Posts: 118
- Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2003 9:10 pm
- Location: Canberra, Australia
Encouraging attendance
Larry and Showem
I guess you've both found that one of the advantages of the smaller class is that you can get to know each member of the class and find out exactly what they are looking for from that class - where and how they expect to be using their English. It allows you to draw on their own experience for your examples, and to keep referring back to what they have already told you. If they are learning business English, I imagine that most of them would be keen enough to be participating, so that you don't end up leaving anybody out of the interaction.
If they know that they haven't had time to fully explain themselves, but that they'll get the opportunity in the next class to clarify the point of view they've initiated, that will also help to keep them coming back.
Of course, the better your memory for people's names and faces and stories, the bigger your class can be!
Cheers.
Norm
I guess you've both found that one of the advantages of the smaller class is that you can get to know each member of the class and find out exactly what they are looking for from that class - where and how they expect to be using their English. It allows you to draw on their own experience for your examples, and to keep referring back to what they have already told you. If they are learning business English, I imagine that most of them would be keen enough to be participating, so that you don't end up leaving anybody out of the interaction.
If they know that they haven't had time to fully explain themselves, but that they'll get the opportunity in the next class to clarify the point of view they've initiated, that will also help to keep them coming back.
Of course, the better your memory for people's names and faces and stories, the bigger your class can be!
Cheers.
Norm
-
thepostmodern
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2003 5:22 pm
Hello all,
My name is Kyle. I have taught English for 10 years. I got a B.Ed TESL as well as M.A. English. I was in Germany in 2003. I taught English in Halle, near Leipzig.
I taught business English for a while and this is what I think about it! What a crock! Business English! I had this book that covered this and that part of speech just like any other mediocre ESL book, but with the same theme: business. They called it business English. WOW!
Business English is another word for formula English that we teach sometimes to very beginners for a short time. Formula language teaching is limited and as a ressult, ultimately self defeating. There are just too many situations where the formula will simply fall apart and not be applicable.
If you are lucky, very lucky to have people who do exactly the same thing, say German TV salesmen who want to sell in New York, then maybe you can teach them how to sell TVs using English. But suppose you have salesmen who sell different types of TV, what are you going to teach them then? Clearly, you cannot design a class that would be relevant to all business people. That is simply not feasable.
In my business class there were secretaries, executives, salesmen and floor workers. To find a common ground among all of them was absurd.
THERE ARE NO SHORT CUTS IN LANGUAGE LEARNING. There is only one way: the hard, and long way.
My name is Kyle. I have taught English for 10 years. I got a B.Ed TESL as well as M.A. English. I was in Germany in 2003. I taught English in Halle, near Leipzig.
I taught business English for a while and this is what I think about it! What a crock! Business English! I had this book that covered this and that part of speech just like any other mediocre ESL book, but with the same theme: business. They called it business English. WOW!
Business English is another word for formula English that we teach sometimes to very beginners for a short time. Formula language teaching is limited and as a ressult, ultimately self defeating. There are just too many situations where the formula will simply fall apart and not be applicable.
If you are lucky, very lucky to have people who do exactly the same thing, say German TV salesmen who want to sell in New York, then maybe you can teach them how to sell TVs using English. But suppose you have salesmen who sell different types of TV, what are you going to teach them then? Clearly, you cannot design a class that would be relevant to all business people. That is simply not feasable.
In my business class there were secretaries, executives, salesmen and floor workers. To find a common ground among all of them was absurd.
THERE ARE NO SHORT CUTS IN LANGUAGE LEARNING. There is only one way: the hard, and long way.
-
LarryLatham
- Posts: 1195
- Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2003 6:33 pm
- Location: Aguanga, California (near San Diego)
Hi Kyle,
I can see that you're pretty frustrated by what you've seen that goes by the label of "Business English". I don't blame you, because you are, for the most part, quite right. Most of what passes for Business English in textbooks is simply basic English with a slightly different emphasis on the vocabulary.
And while I might tend to agree with you on your conclusion (that the only way to learn English is the long, hard way) I'd like also to suggest an alternative in the 'teaching materials' column in the case of Business English.
As you point out, most of the time students in Business English classes come from different departments in the business, and therefore have some divergent ideas about what 'business' is. If you have a very large class (20 or more students, say) this might be quite a difficult situation for you as teacher. But if the class is smaller and you can afford to offer some individual attention to each student, you might ask them to bring you some documents they have encountered in their jobs. (If they don't work with documents so much, but have to interact with English speaking co-workers, you might ask them to write down some of the expressions they hear). You can then explore these documents (or expressions) with the whole class, taking them apart, so to speak, and analyzing what they say and why they are written like that. You are almost certain to wind up with better material than you will get with a 'Business English' textbook, plus you'll have the added advantage of using materials that are precisely relevant to your students.
Larry Latham
I can see that you're pretty frustrated by what you've seen that goes by the label of "Business English". I don't blame you, because you are, for the most part, quite right. Most of what passes for Business English in textbooks is simply basic English with a slightly different emphasis on the vocabulary.
And while I might tend to agree with you on your conclusion (that the only way to learn English is the long, hard way) I'd like also to suggest an alternative in the 'teaching materials' column in the case of Business English.
As you point out, most of the time students in Business English classes come from different departments in the business, and therefore have some divergent ideas about what 'business' is. If you have a very large class (20 or more students, say) this might be quite a difficult situation for you as teacher. But if the class is smaller and you can afford to offer some individual attention to each student, you might ask them to bring you some documents they have encountered in their jobs. (If they don't work with documents so much, but have to interact with English speaking co-workers, you might ask them to write down some of the expressions they hear). You can then explore these documents (or expressions) with the whole class, taking them apart, so to speak, and analyzing what they say and why they are written like that. You are almost certain to wind up with better material than you will get with a 'Business English' textbook, plus you'll have the added advantage of using materials that are precisely relevant to your students.
Larry Latham
getting qualified to teach Bus. English in Germany
Hello Sita and Frances,
I am a Native-speaker currently teaching kids English at the local grundschule and want to get certified or qualified to teach Bus English in the furture. Can you give me some advice, please? Can I do this online somewhere? Where are you both in Germany?
I would really appreciate some info or advice from anyone out there about getting started and/or qualified teaching Bus. English in the Stuttgart area. thanks!
I am a Native-speaker currently teaching kids English at the local grundschule and want to get certified or qualified to teach Bus English in the furture. Can you give me some advice, please? Can I do this online somewhere? Where are you both in Germany?
I would really appreciate some info or advice from anyone out there about getting started and/or qualified teaching Bus. English in the Stuttgart area. thanks!