I'm teaching at a kindergarten, have my own class of 18 kids age 4. I'm having lots of discipline problems, they never listen to me or the chinese teacher, They are loud and things have to be said over and over and over.
NOthing seems to work, any suggestinos?
We've tried stars and strikes, 5 stars gets a prize, 5 strikes go the the principal, some went to the principal two times in one day.
tried not have play time.
Tried bribing with candy, and extra play time.
Tried calling parents/sending notes home if they were good or bad
Tried a marble jar.
Tried standing them in the corner.
Tried having them write I will blah blah blah, or I will not blah blah blah.
I'm at my wits end. They are the worst class in the school, other teachers have tried teaching them and have given up.
What can I do?
Discipline problems
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naturegirl321
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Sally Olsen
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You sound super creative. What do you do with the marble jar? Is it like the dinasour bag and you give them a dinosaur every time they do something right?
It sounds like you have hit the new generation of one child in the family who gets all the attention, never has to share at home, wait for anything or consider anyone else. In Mongolia, my principal's solution was to hit them all on the cheeks, firmly until it left red marks. I don't recommend this at all but it did work (for about ten minutes or until she left the room).
Are there any of the kids that are doing OK? Concentrate on those. Ignore the rest. It is terribly hard to do especially if they are banging one another on the head or as one of my student's did, took the head of his desk partner and slammed her face into it - result her bloody nose and his face and bottom red from the principal. But I ignored it (almost bit my lip through though) and let the kids take them to the principal. I just continued to teach. I also ignored the two little boys who jumped out the window and ran around the balcony two floors up without a railing. The other kids turned them in as well. It was super hard to do and against all my better judgement and certainly frustrating for my principal. The jumping off the desks and pushing the others off on top of me almost got my attention but I just moved and sat down with a little boy who was reading a book and laughed with him at the pictures, counted to ten and tried to wait them out and after six months it worked. I doubted myself continually and once had to leave the room when I was going to shout at the boy who threw the scizzors at the wall. I said that I need to get something and stepped outside to cool down. It is enormously hard to change their behaviour when everything at home is working against you. They go home to complete attention every night and come back expecting the same. In Japan, some parents thought the kids were cute when they did "naughty" things and some boys even hit their fathers and mothers hard in the nose. So don't expect to change them in a day but don't give up. They really need to learn to have "indoor" voices, share, take turns, sit and listen, draw, paint, write, read, and all the other school skills. The next teachers will bless you if you are able to bring them around. Maybe you can try to take their pictures doing things that you would like and just silently point to the pictures when they aren't doing them. You can take a movie of them doing well and keep showing that over and over or take a movie of some other class doing well.
At 4 they are not going to sit long and if you are expecting that it will be unrealistic. They are not all going to want to do the same things because they are so highly individualistic. A Montessori type approach with stations of activities works really well. We had a reading corner with puppets, books, soft pillows and a little cave. We had a painting corner, a big toy corner, a water play corner, a sandbox in the middle of the room, construction toys in the big refrigerator box so they didn't get too far spread out and it made a little room that we could see in over the top, a blackboard that was lowered to their height for drawing and writing, paper dolls with scissors to cut out, lots of paper for drawing and writing, little cars with a road painted on the carpet where they could put little houses and schools and such, lots of games and flash cards they could bring out and put back, blocks to build big things and a little play house with things they were used to having at home including a telephone and dress up clothes. The children could go to any station but had to put their little name tag (with their pictures) next to the picture of the station on the wall poster and only 4 could be in a station at once. They could change stations as often as they liked but had to change their name tag as well. We had a circle time at the end of the session with show and tell, stories, cookies, juice and, songs, finger plays. We talked to them all the time, telling them in English what they were doing.
If possible you could take the the majority of the children outside the classroom -show them films, take them to the gym or to the library. One of you stay in the classroom with 4 of the "best" children and teach them what to do for a session. Gradually introduce 4 others who you know will probably fit in, and then another 4. Stop about 12 and let them have two days or so to really entrench the behaviour. Encourage the first ones to teach the new ones what to do. Maybe you could get some parents in for a little while to help things quiet down or to help entertain the ones that are not in the classroom yet. You will have to convince everyone that this is a super "new" idea and one that will make their child the best student ever and who knows- it might. I wouldn't have believed that it works if I hadn't tried it and I actually enjoyed going to the class after December. My principal was even more amazed that I did it without hitting the kids.
It sounds like you have hit the new generation of one child in the family who gets all the attention, never has to share at home, wait for anything or consider anyone else. In Mongolia, my principal's solution was to hit them all on the cheeks, firmly until it left red marks. I don't recommend this at all but it did work (for about ten minutes or until she left the room).
Are there any of the kids that are doing OK? Concentrate on those. Ignore the rest. It is terribly hard to do especially if they are banging one another on the head or as one of my student's did, took the head of his desk partner and slammed her face into it - result her bloody nose and his face and bottom red from the principal. But I ignored it (almost bit my lip through though) and let the kids take them to the principal. I just continued to teach. I also ignored the two little boys who jumped out the window and ran around the balcony two floors up without a railing. The other kids turned them in as well. It was super hard to do and against all my better judgement and certainly frustrating for my principal. The jumping off the desks and pushing the others off on top of me almost got my attention but I just moved and sat down with a little boy who was reading a book and laughed with him at the pictures, counted to ten and tried to wait them out and after six months it worked. I doubted myself continually and once had to leave the room when I was going to shout at the boy who threw the scizzors at the wall. I said that I need to get something and stepped outside to cool down. It is enormously hard to change their behaviour when everything at home is working against you. They go home to complete attention every night and come back expecting the same. In Japan, some parents thought the kids were cute when they did "naughty" things and some boys even hit their fathers and mothers hard in the nose. So don't expect to change them in a day but don't give up. They really need to learn to have "indoor" voices, share, take turns, sit and listen, draw, paint, write, read, and all the other school skills. The next teachers will bless you if you are able to bring them around. Maybe you can try to take their pictures doing things that you would like and just silently point to the pictures when they aren't doing them. You can take a movie of them doing well and keep showing that over and over or take a movie of some other class doing well.
At 4 they are not going to sit long and if you are expecting that it will be unrealistic. They are not all going to want to do the same things because they are so highly individualistic. A Montessori type approach with stations of activities works really well. We had a reading corner with puppets, books, soft pillows and a little cave. We had a painting corner, a big toy corner, a water play corner, a sandbox in the middle of the room, construction toys in the big refrigerator box so they didn't get too far spread out and it made a little room that we could see in over the top, a blackboard that was lowered to their height for drawing and writing, paper dolls with scissors to cut out, lots of paper for drawing and writing, little cars with a road painted on the carpet where they could put little houses and schools and such, lots of games and flash cards they could bring out and put back, blocks to build big things and a little play house with things they were used to having at home including a telephone and dress up clothes. The children could go to any station but had to put their little name tag (with their pictures) next to the picture of the station on the wall poster and only 4 could be in a station at once. They could change stations as often as they liked but had to change their name tag as well. We had a circle time at the end of the session with show and tell, stories, cookies, juice and, songs, finger plays. We talked to them all the time, telling them in English what they were doing.
If possible you could take the the majority of the children outside the classroom -show them films, take them to the gym or to the library. One of you stay in the classroom with 4 of the "best" children and teach them what to do for a session. Gradually introduce 4 others who you know will probably fit in, and then another 4. Stop about 12 and let them have two days or so to really entrench the behaviour. Encourage the first ones to teach the new ones what to do. Maybe you could get some parents in for a little while to help things quiet down or to help entertain the ones that are not in the classroom yet. You will have to convince everyone that this is a super "new" idea and one that will make their child the best student ever and who knows- it might. I wouldn't have believed that it works if I hadn't tried it and I actually enjoyed going to the class after December. My principal was even more amazed that I did it without hitting the kids.
Man of us from the world come with totally naive expectations to China. At first, there is a feeling of being welcome and respected. But over time, you see through the sheen.
Chinese learners can be very unruly. This is a feature of their culture. One sign anyone notices is that people don't have the respect for those who talk to them - teachers, public announcers, etc. Go to a cinema, a restaurant, even to their homes - and you will see many are in touch with someone not present - by cellphone. This is annoying for us, perhaps less so for them; even their family life is dictated by those intrusive cellphone calls.
But in a classroom, kids need to learn how to behave themselves. Our role as facilitators of spoken English is somehow in conflict with this behavioral pattern. We need to instill in them the same set of values and respect for those who speak to them - but this is not our supposed job.
As an attempt to help naturegirl I would answer that modifying her lessons might be useful. The question, however, will be: will ideas such as those I am going to develop be welcome at her school? I foresee some difficulty.
First thing: pupils should learn to THINK INDEPENDENTLY, rather than mimick their teacher, unthinkingly. Thinking is a process that can occur only if there is no distraction such as noise. We have this in Western schools. There students don't mimick foreign sounds, believing this makes them "fluent" in a foreign tongue. Yes, I am not in favour of "speaking" classes, for various reasons. One is that this does not spawn thinking.
How can you prod them into thinking?
Ihad tremendous success with one class I taught at a Chinese kindergarten. However, I did many things I was not exactly encouraged to do. One was to direct my pupils to DRAW and finally, to WRITE letters. Drawing letters can be very creative, and the kids get freedom to shape them as they please. I merely instructed them: "One...two...three...", drawing lines and bows and dots that eventually looked like an A, ("mammy A", and a "baby A"), etc. Then I drew an apple. The kids were quiet, QUIET! And, theyworked. And their minds got stimulated in the process.
Believe me - after one semester my kids could make EDUCATED decisions! I would ask them: "Today, what shall we do? Would you like to DRAW? Or would you like to do a GAME?" They would respond by lifting their hands, and we could do a VOTE COUNT. Yes, you can rewally teach kids at kindergarten to THINK. My kindy classes were the most enjoyable I remember!
Chinese learners can be very unruly. This is a feature of their culture. One sign anyone notices is that people don't have the respect for those who talk to them - teachers, public announcers, etc. Go to a cinema, a restaurant, even to their homes - and you will see many are in touch with someone not present - by cellphone. This is annoying for us, perhaps less so for them; even their family life is dictated by those intrusive cellphone calls.
But in a classroom, kids need to learn how to behave themselves. Our role as facilitators of spoken English is somehow in conflict with this behavioral pattern. We need to instill in them the same set of values and respect for those who speak to them - but this is not our supposed job.
As an attempt to help naturegirl I would answer that modifying her lessons might be useful. The question, however, will be: will ideas such as those I am going to develop be welcome at her school? I foresee some difficulty.
First thing: pupils should learn to THINK INDEPENDENTLY, rather than mimick their teacher, unthinkingly. Thinking is a process that can occur only if there is no distraction such as noise. We have this in Western schools. There students don't mimick foreign sounds, believing this makes them "fluent" in a foreign tongue. Yes, I am not in favour of "speaking" classes, for various reasons. One is that this does not spawn thinking.
How can you prod them into thinking?
Ihad tremendous success with one class I taught at a Chinese kindergarten. However, I did many things I was not exactly encouraged to do. One was to direct my pupils to DRAW and finally, to WRITE letters. Drawing letters can be very creative, and the kids get freedom to shape them as they please. I merely instructed them: "One...two...three...", drawing lines and bows and dots that eventually looked like an A, ("mammy A", and a "baby A"), etc. Then I drew an apple. The kids were quiet, QUIET! And, theyworked. And their minds got stimulated in the process.
Believe me - after one semester my kids could make EDUCATED decisions! I would ask them: "Today, what shall we do? Would you like to DRAW? Or would you like to do a GAME?" They would respond by lifting their hands, and we could do a VOTE COUNT. Yes, you can rewally teach kids at kindergarten to THINK. My kindy classes were the most enjoyable I remember!
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EFLwithlittleones
- Posts: 59
- Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2004 1:18 pm
kdg dicscipline
In kindergarten EFL I find the following works:
(a) A day by day lesson routine that is predicatable for the children.
(b) Desktop activities which are absorbing.
(c) Physical drills.
Re: (a)
Children at 4 with little comprehension of you or your speech will need to know from one day to the next what to expect since much of a small child's rambunctious behaviour is a reaction to incomprehension and fear. Therefore a predicatable structure will help to orientate them.
Re: (b) Here's one example:
If you have dot to dot alphabet sheets strip the pictures out. Better still make your own and use a font in grey. Give the children coloured feltips instead of pencils (I use red, blue, green and black). They are easier to hold and indelible, which will help the children to concentrate. The colours will stimulate their imaginations and keep them asking for more sheets to do.
Re: (c)
A daily regime of yoga or simple stretching exercises. This puts you at the front and in charge and the children in front of you in rows. Examples include; stretch up tall, legs apart, tip sideways and touch your knee, touch your toes (legs straight), sit down feet drawn up knees apart try and touch your forehead to the floor (really!) etc.,etc. Use your own ideas. Keep the moves simple and the children will join in because it looks fun. It will also help them to concentrate and develop body coordination.
I have used all these ideas successfully with kdg. Discipline in the classroom is critical if children are to learn and it is best if an integral part of the activity.
Sallam
(a) A day by day lesson routine that is predicatable for the children.
(b) Desktop activities which are absorbing.
(c) Physical drills.
Re: (a)
Children at 4 with little comprehension of you or your speech will need to know from one day to the next what to expect since much of a small child's rambunctious behaviour is a reaction to incomprehension and fear. Therefore a predicatable structure will help to orientate them.
Re: (b) Here's one example:
If you have dot to dot alphabet sheets strip the pictures out. Better still make your own and use a font in grey. Give the children coloured feltips instead of pencils (I use red, blue, green and black). They are easier to hold and indelible, which will help the children to concentrate. The colours will stimulate their imaginations and keep them asking for more sheets to do.
Re: (c)
A daily regime of yoga or simple stretching exercises. This puts you at the front and in charge and the children in front of you in rows. Examples include; stretch up tall, legs apart, tip sideways and touch your knee, touch your toes (legs straight), sit down feet drawn up knees apart try and touch your forehead to the floor (really!) etc.,etc. Use your own ideas. Keep the moves simple and the children will join in because it looks fun. It will also help them to concentrate and develop body coordination.
I have used all these ideas successfully with kdg. Discipline in the classroom is critical if children are to learn and it is best if an integral part of the activity.
Sallam
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naturegirl321
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2003 3:15 am
- Location: Suwon, Korea
Sally Olsen,
You have wonderful ideas, but as Roger says, I can't follow any of them because they aren't in the curriculum. Your stations sounds like preschool in the States, wonderful, where kids have fun and don't have to study study study and never play.
As for parents, some are too busy that the kids live in the kindergarten. Can't take them out for field trips because the parents thinkm that the school is trying to advertise.
ESLwithlittleones,
The lesson plans are similar everyday. We do excersises in the monring. And do some desktop stuff, less now, becuase the parents worry about their kids' eyes.
The problem is that my kids understand the commands, just don't listen.
I tried the squirt gun thing. He's what happnes, it gets their attention, but then lots of them act bad because they want to get squirted, we're on the fifth floor, no air, no fans, it's hot.
I tried this as well. Drew a circle about the size of my fist on a paper. Put the paper on the floor in the middle of the circle where we sit for class. If they were bad the second time, they have to put their nose on the circle and be in the duck and cover postion for five minutes.
Third time they are bad have to hold their hands out to the side for five minutes.
The class is better, however three of the bad kids were sick today, again.
You have wonderful ideas, but as Roger says, I can't follow any of them because they aren't in the curriculum. Your stations sounds like preschool in the States, wonderful, where kids have fun and don't have to study study study and never play.
As for parents, some are too busy that the kids live in the kindergarten. Can't take them out for field trips because the parents thinkm that the school is trying to advertise.
ESLwithlittleones,
The lesson plans are similar everyday. We do excersises in the monring. And do some desktop stuff, less now, becuase the parents worry about their kids' eyes.
The problem is that my kids understand the commands, just don't listen.
I tried the squirt gun thing. He's what happnes, it gets their attention, but then lots of them act bad because they want to get squirted, we're on the fifth floor, no air, no fans, it's hot.
I tried this as well. Drew a circle about the size of my fist on a paper. Put the paper on the floor in the middle of the circle where we sit for class. If they were bad the second time, they have to put their nose on the circle and be in the duck and cover postion for five minutes.
Third time they are bad have to hold their hands out to the side for five minutes.
The class is better, however three of the bad kids were sick today, again.
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Sally Olsen
- Posts: 1322
- Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2004 2:24 pm
- Location: Canada,France, Brazil, Japan, Mongolia, Greenland, Canada, Mongolia, Ethiopia next
Play is work for little kids. What is the curriculum then? I guess the main idea I was trying to say was don't concentrate on the ones that are doing bad things - there are supposedly no bad kids, there are just kids who do bad things. If you come to school each day with a focus on the difficulties you will find the difficulties there. It is normal and natural that we don't like criticism or difficulties and tend to concentrate on those. It happens in every job. My son who is an entertainer can give a spectacular performance (OK,I am prejudiced but he is good!) and he remembers the one person in the audience who went to sleep. It will play havic with your stomach or whatever part of your body tenses up when you know you are going to have a bad time of it. These kids are worth it, especially the ones that are good Just for a week try to ignore the others and let them wreck their mayhem. Sit down and meditate in the middle of the room if you can't think of any other way to ignore it. That ohm chant is really fascinating to little kids. I think that the yoga exercises suggested were also trying to focus the children, to gain control over their impulses so they will be calmer and when they do go off the tracks, use the exercises immediately to calm them again, not just once a day as part of the curriculum. The beauty of being a teacher is that you can close that door and it is your world. You can decide what is best for the kids and how to do it (within reason of course) and then you can mold what you say to the parents and principal to fit the curriculum.
It does seem a bit to me that you want an excuse to get out. No one would blame you for leaving in such an impossible situation and for your mental and physical health it might be the best solution. There are better situations for you in many places and you will actually enjoy teaching.
It does seem a bit to me that you want an excuse to get out. No one would blame you for leaving in such an impossible situation and for your mental and physical health it might be the best solution. There are better situations for you in many places and you will actually enjoy teaching.
Free rewards
Hi, I have found prizes/rewards to do the trick, I use old stamps from home or make awards for free at
http://www.certificatecenter.com
http://www.certificatecenter.com
The final solution
The final solution
To all those ESL teachers out there who are getting grumpy and angry about discipline problems in the class, read this carefully, it's from Clausewitz, "On War." Take this to heart. Since adopting these methods, my teaching time has become significantly more pleasant. Don't play games with discipline: 'three strikes,' 'candy charts' or 'English necklaces.' The teacher-student relationship is a test of wills, we are bending the will of the students to our own (that's from Clausewitz too, but I don't recall the exact wording).
To all those ESL teachers out there who are getting grumpy and angry about discipline problems in the class, read this carefully, it's from Clausewitz, "On War." Take this to heart. Since adopting these methods, my teaching time has become significantly more pleasant. Don't play games with discipline: 'three strikes,' 'candy charts' or 'English necklaces.' The teacher-student relationship is a test of wills, we are bending the will of the students to our own (that's from Clausewitz too, but I don't recall the exact wording).
"The first and most important rule to observe ... is to use our entire forces with the utmost energy. The second rule is to concentrate our power as much as possible against that section where the chief blows are to be delivered .... The third rule is never to waste time. ...it is necessary to set to work at once. By this speed a hundred enemy measures are nipped in the bud, and public opinion is won most rapidly. Finally, the fourth rule is to follow up our successes with the utmost energy. Only pursuit of the beaten enemy gives the fruits of victory."
And, from Machiavelli:"If the enemy is to be coerced, you must put him in a situation that is even more unpleasant than the sacrifice you call on him to make. The hardships of the situation must not be merely transient - at least not in appearance. Otherwise, the enemy would not give in, but would wait for things to improve."
My students call me "gangster" because they don't know "dictator" in English. Don't play stupid discipline games. My students flinch and beg and bow when I come close to them. We accomplish more in forty minutes than being soft can in six weeks.It Is Better To Be Feared Than Loved
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Sally Olsen
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- Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2004 2:24 pm
- Location: Canada,France, Brazil, Japan, Mongolia, Greenland, Canada, Mongolia, Ethiopia next
I would like to challenge your last statement. "We accomplish more in forty minutes than being soft can in six weeks." Who is the "we"? Can you provide us with statistics that show your students are more successful in the long run than the softies? I can't really imagine how you live with yourself from day to day and can't imagine why you want to be in teaching. You could make much more money terrorizing people in other fields and society would have a much fairer chance of controlling your behaviour. I can't imagine that you and your methods will last long though as students realize that you have no right to act this way towards them. This method of thinking has never been "the final solution".
respect
Yes, Sally, that is just the sort of teacher I imagine you are.What do you do with the marble jar? Is it like the dinasour bag and you give them a dinosaur every time they do something right?
I have tried to make my system as analytical and objective as possible. Feel free to read about my method here, try it, then judge the results for yourself. I have had a reenrollment rate of 97% over several terms with 95 to 130 students. Further, 11 of the 20 students I prepped last season were accepted into KMLA/Minsago ("...one of Korea's most prestigious schools...").Can you provide us with statistics that show your students are more successful ...
The truth is Sally, when parents peek into your classroom and see:
Obviously that could not make a favorable impression. When parents peek into my classroom, they see a well ordered productive class: desks straight, every student on the same page, drilling and answering questions in a clear loud voice....as one of my student's did, took the head of his desk partner and slammed her face into it - result her bloody nose and his face and bottom red from the principal. But I ignored it (almost bit my lip through though) and let the kids take them to the principal. I just continued to teach. I also ignored the two little boys who jumped out the window and ran around the balcony two floors up without a railing. The other kids turned them in as well. It was super hard to do and against all my better judgement and certainly frustrating for my principal. The jumping off the desks and pushing the others off on top of me almost got my attention but I just moved and sat down with a little boy who was reading a book and laughed with him at the pictures, counted to ten and tried to wait them out and after six months it worked. I doubted myself continually and once had to leave the room when I was going to shout at the boy who threw the scizzors at the wall... Sit down and meditate in the middle of the room...
I hardly see that statistics are needed to show the superiority of a well disciplined class over the description you give of yours. As for the long run, when students finish a term having well rehearsed all the target language in their text and have understood the proper way to behave before foreign teachers, I can only speculate that they will find great success in their future English endeavors.
The next teachers will bless you if you are able to bring them around.
I will grant you this Sally: a clown show is a very effective way of keeping the student's attention. However, have you never wondered why it is that the students are so well behaved with their native teachers? I think it is not just because of whippings and boredom, I think that foreign teachers need to better enforce the respect that they deserve from their native students.
P.S.: "scizzors"- scissors, "havic"- havoc, "wreck"- wreak.
Last edited by megaclom on Fri Apr 15, 2005 4:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Sally Olsen
- Posts: 1322
- Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2004 2:24 pm
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Interesting use of quotes. If this is the type of argument that you use to justify your use of fear, I am afraid it doesn't make much of an impression on me as you can imagine. I heartily agree that you need and deserve respect but I don't think that you can win that with fear or worse, yet with corporal punishment. Why do your students "flinch and beg and bow"? Is it because they think your methods are superior? If that were the case, they wouldn't need to flinch at least. I think that the native teachers often have more control because they know the families and are known themselves in the community. I find the more that I am able to do that myself, the easier things become in the running of the classroom. It took me six months to have a classroom that I was proud of in Mongolia, not that I didn't invite parents in to try and help me solve the problems before that. I found that was a marvelous way to sort out difficulties for most students as I understood their background more and their talents and possibilities and would highly recommend it. As a parent of a child in your classroom, I would take my child out or ask for them to be transfered to a teacher who enjoyed his subject and his students. If children were machines or English were a machine, we could just turn the students over to the computer but it has not proven itself to be a completely successful teacher (otherwise you would not be able to find so many spelling mistakes in my contributions).
Way back when I was looking for elementary schools for my younger son (16 years ago, that would be), I visited the local elementary school and saw two kindergarten classes. In one of them, the teacher was very strict. The students were to sit quietly and not make any noise. One boy who inadvertently hummed was admonished. In the other classroom, the students were all abuzz as they worked on things and were learning together. I asked if I would have a choice of teachers if my son was to enter that school. When I was told "no," I decided not to allow him to attend that school for fear he would get Ms. Prison Warden. The early teachers have a large effect on kids, on how they perceive themselves, how they interact with others, and how they view school and the school experience. I'd put my kid in Sally's class any day.
Regardless of your perceived feelings:
P.S. I very much like both teaching and children, so don't be making any invalid inductions from my posts Sally.
I do not wish to start a flame war, rather, I see so many teachers around me and on this forum experiencing fatigue and frustration over classroom management problems that I wouldn't want them "leaving in such an impossible situation" or have to wait six months for things to improve. Foreign elementary teachers need to know that they don't need to put on minstrel shows, rather they can lay down the law with their students, and thereby save themselves the inevitable burnout that must come from being harassed day in and day out by obnoxious and disrespectful children.I have had a reenrollment rate of 97% over several terms with 95 to 130 students. Further, 11 of the 20 students I prepped last season were accepted into KMLA/Minsago ("...one of Korea's most prestigious schools...").
P.S. I very much like both teaching and children, so don't be making any invalid inductions from my posts Sally.
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Sally Olsen
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- Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2004 2:24 pm
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This is an open forum which is based mainly on personal experience. I hope that you are not taking my comments as inflammatory and certainly don't take yours that way. I am expressing heart felt opinions. As I said before, I personally can just not imagine that you enjoy the students or teaching. You are using emotionally loaded language with "the final solution" and Machivellian references. You seem to be promoting fear as way of controlling situations in the classroom. You want to mechanize a living language. We seem to be on the opposite ends of the continuum of teacher-centered and student-centered classrooms. It is an old discussion along with many others such as Audio Lingual vs Communicative and so on.
I am a student of teaching and love to discuss. I will refrain from further personal references to you if that will help the discussion but would love to hear what your philosophy of teaching is, if it allows you to enjoy teaching in a classroom with students sitting in a row, answering in a loud voice and drilliing information. I would perish in such in a situation both as a student and a teacher.
After six months in Mongolia, most of the students had worked out their own internal methods of discipline which would last them throughout their lives. I think that is a pretty short length of time to internalize school behaviour and expectations particularly when most of their former teachers had provided the discipline. Life is a growing process and I had to adapt as much as the students. Their experience was not mine and vise versa so it took a reasonable amount of time to grow together. Why would you be afraid to examine yourself and your students to see what is going to work the best? This involves frustration and angst but is exciting and a challenge.
The students in Mongolia in the last 80 years have experienced a Russian style of education that required them to drill and reguritate the information. The teachers in my school were brought up in that way but didn't want to continue what they had experienced, However, they found it hard to do something different because they had never experienced anything different. Combine those difficulties with young children who were only children, who have a nomadic bent of high individuality and hands-on experience of learning at home and I found school behaviour was problematic.
However, I would not adopt your methods to make things go more smoothly more quickly because I don't think that the long term goals that I have in mind for my students would be accomplished. I think that you provide the control in the classroom and the students are not learning to do this for themselves. It doesn't sound like they are learning to think for themselves and I find that more valuable in the long run when they go their exams.
I am a student of teaching and love to discuss. I will refrain from further personal references to you if that will help the discussion but would love to hear what your philosophy of teaching is, if it allows you to enjoy teaching in a classroom with students sitting in a row, answering in a loud voice and drilliing information. I would perish in such in a situation both as a student and a teacher.
After six months in Mongolia, most of the students had worked out their own internal methods of discipline which would last them throughout their lives. I think that is a pretty short length of time to internalize school behaviour and expectations particularly when most of their former teachers had provided the discipline. Life is a growing process and I had to adapt as much as the students. Their experience was not mine and vise versa so it took a reasonable amount of time to grow together. Why would you be afraid to examine yourself and your students to see what is going to work the best? This involves frustration and angst but is exciting and a challenge.
The students in Mongolia in the last 80 years have experienced a Russian style of education that required them to drill and reguritate the information. The teachers in my school were brought up in that way but didn't want to continue what they had experienced, However, they found it hard to do something different because they had never experienced anything different. Combine those difficulties with young children who were only children, who have a nomadic bent of high individuality and hands-on experience of learning at home and I found school behaviour was problematic.
However, I would not adopt your methods to make things go more smoothly more quickly because I don't think that the long term goals that I have in mind for my students would be accomplished. I think that you provide the control in the classroom and the students are not learning to do this for themselves. It doesn't sound like they are learning to think for themselves and I find that more valuable in the long run when they go their exams.
Dear naturegirl,
I've asked myself the same question with some classes. What should I do? Well, since it's April, just wait a little longer for the school year to finish
You have a very difficult class and it's not surprising you are so frustrated. You said that even Chinese teachers cannot do much about it. And what's more, the children are 4 years old... It's not an easy problem, is it?
I have no methods to suggest since I usually copy and print others' approaches and study them later to see how I can be helped But I know that we are all different in the way we manage a classroom situation and what's best for me might be disastrous for someone else. I've been through quite a few stages while "learning" (because for me, what we call "teaching" has primarily been a unique form of learning). I've been strict and ironic, tolerant and playful. I've felt frustrated, disillusioned, useless and neglected. You see, in my country state school EFL teachers (I'm one of them) are somehow a big joke as children learn languages in private language schools. I have come to believe the classroom is like a battlefield, meaning you cannot survive without observing, making plans, having targets, thinking and rethinking about you did and what you're going to do. Things are not easy by all means. I don't know about others but there were cases when I said to myself "That's it. I cannot do more. I have 8 more classes and an after-school life to live as well and I will not waste all my time on children (and very often, parents) who have no intention to work or simply cooperate. " After talking with parents, other teachers, headmaster etc, after being strict, ironic, threatening, cunning, flexible, phew!, and I still see disheartening results, well, sorry, but I cannot get into some people's homes and change their ideas about respect and descipline (or the lack of it).
I mentioned parents, other teachers etc because I usually resort to their help when I foresee danger. I also talk with the little ones, if this is possible, and try to make them understand that sth is not "right". The way I do that varies depending on their age. I'm always honest with them about how I feel and how their behaviour affects other pupils. Of course, I don't expect children to understand what I mean the way an adult might do because they cannot concentrate on lengthy speeches (not that adults can...) and melodramatic details.
I try to be firm and serious in the classroom and balance what I give with what I get. Not that I'm always successful as I usually get less! This doesn't mean I don't play or allow them to be stupid etc. I love games, drawing and colouring, funny activities and puppets. I simply try not to lose control no matter if it's grammar or funny miming. You don't have to walk around with a whip in your hand in order to control a situation. This asks for very good preparation and understanding of the fact that you cannot take things for granted in a classroom (or anywhere else, I suppose...). I also try to keep ears and eyes open about possible behavioural, psychological or even family problems as I'm a native teacher and have no communication problems as far as L1 is concerned. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I must be honest in that I've never had a class of 4-year-olds and I expect I'd face enormous difficulties if I had to set an action plan
I'm sorry I cannot help with practical suggestions but I feel that since I've worked with 8-12 year-olds whatever I say might not be applicable to your situation. Good luck and let us know how it goes.
I've asked myself the same question with some classes. What should I do? Well, since it's April, just wait a little longer for the school year to finish
You have a very difficult class and it's not surprising you are so frustrated. You said that even Chinese teachers cannot do much about it. And what's more, the children are 4 years old... It's not an easy problem, is it?I have no methods to suggest since I usually copy and print others' approaches and study them later to see how I can be helped
But I know that we are all different in the way we manage a classroom situation and what's best for me might be disastrous for someone else. I've been through quite a few stages while "learning" (because for me, what we call "teaching" has primarily been a unique form of learning). I've been strict and ironic, tolerant and playful. I've felt frustrated, disillusioned, useless and neglected. You see, in my country state school EFL teachers (I'm one of them) are somehow a big joke as children learn languages in private language schools. I have come to believe the classroom is like a battlefield, meaning you cannot survive without observing, making plans, having targets, thinking and rethinking about you did and what you're going to do. Things are not easy by all means. I don't know about others but there were cases when I said to myself "That's it. I cannot do more. I have 8 more classes and an after-school life to live as well and I will not waste all my time on children (and very often, parents) who have no intention to work or simply cooperate. " After talking with parents, other teachers, headmaster etc, after being strict, ironic, threatening, cunning, flexible, phew!, and I still see disheartening results, well, sorry, but I cannot get into some people's homes and change their ideas about respect and descipline (or the lack of it). I mentioned parents, other teachers etc because I usually resort to their help when I foresee danger. I also talk with the little ones, if this is possible, and try to make them understand that sth is not "right". The way I do that varies depending on their age. I'm always honest with them about how I feel and how their behaviour affects other pupils. Of course, I don't expect children to understand what I mean the way an adult might do because they cannot concentrate on lengthy speeches (not that adults can...) and melodramatic details.
I try to be firm and serious in the classroom and balance what I give with what I get. Not that I'm always successful as I usually get less!
This doesn't mean I don't play or allow them to be stupid etc. I love games, drawing and colouring, funny activities and puppets. I simply try not to lose control no matter if it's grammar or funny miming. You don't have to walk around with a whip in your hand in order to control a situation. This asks for very good preparation and understanding of the fact that you cannot take things for granted in a classroom (or anywhere else, I suppose...). I also try to keep ears and eyes open about possible behavioural, psychological or even family problems as I'm a native teacher and have no communication problems as far as L1 is concerned. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I must be honest in that I've never had a class of 4-year-olds and I expect I'd face enormous difficulties if I had to set an action plan I'm sorry I cannot help with practical suggestions but I feel that since I've worked with 8-12 year-olds whatever I say might not be applicable to your situation. Good luck and let us know how it goes.