Hello Canadian ex-physio!
You seem to be in a somewhat similar situation to myself, a Kiwi/Pom soon-to-be-ex-radiographer.
On my part, the desire to do CELTA is more to give myself a foundation of language teaching theory and practice, rather than the idea that the actual qualification is going to be specifically useful in finding a job teaching in a regular language school. Like you, I envisage teaching at a somewhat higher level of English. In fact, I already am with the classes for Health Assistants and private tuition for a couple of would-be doctors whose academic qualifications are acceptable but whose English is not.
Given that the CELTA is the most widely-known and accepted first qualification for English language teachers in most of the world, it can only be helpful to gain the qualification, and may certainly be useful in the future if I wish to extend my formal education in this field.
As far as jobs go, despite my being 55 years old, not yet being ready to leave my profession, and not having yet gained a CELTA certificate, I have been offered several full-time teaching posts in Asia already through colleagues at the hospital where I work!
I have the advantage of being a European passport holder, so most of Europe is open to me more easily than it is to Canadians, Americans etc, but I think there is a great deal of potential all over the non-English speaking world for anyone with a medical/nursing or healthcare qualification, English mother tongue and an interest in language teaching.
Hope this helps!
Liz
Medical ESP - Denists, Doctors
Moderators: Dimitris, maneki neko2, Lorikeet, Enrico Palazzo, superpeach, cecil2, Mr. Kalgukshi2
Liz,
I wonder how your medical professional would explain to a new radiographer when to say to a patient:
a) You broke your arm.
b) You have broken your arm.
c) You had broken your arm
d) You were breaking your arm.
Do you know when to use these? Other languages do NOT have these verbs and they all mean exactly the same thing, while for a native English speaker they are quite different. Herein then lies the job of the ESP teacher. It is our job not only to teach vocabulary, but to teach nuances which non-professionals as yourself do not know. Want other examples? What is the difference between the cancer and the cancers and how do you know when to use plural and when singular is appropriate? How do I distinguish between "It cudbe fatal" and "It cudnbe fatal". Foreigners don't hear the difference because they don't have contractions in their language. How do you make them hear this? Maybe a student asks, "How do you know?" You reply, "If it were malignant, he would be dead." The students thinks that it was malignant because were is in the past therefore, he is dead. The student does not understand that this construction suggests an untrue situation that is imaginary. I hope your medical professional with a couple of esl training courses can explain all of the vital ways language should be interpreted and conveyed. ESP teachers are not here to teach medical knowledge. We are here to teach students how to find meaning from language and express language themselves. Along the way, we also learn much about the specific areas whose context we teach from. Let me state that again. We do not teach context--we teach language. I think you better figure out what a language teacher does before recommending that only medical professionals teach ESP (Can you explain why I used "teach" rather than a different verb form and what that signifies? I can.).
I wonder how your medical professional would explain to a new radiographer when to say to a patient:
a) You broke your arm.
b) You have broken your arm.
c) You had broken your arm
d) You were breaking your arm.
Do you know when to use these? Other languages do NOT have these verbs and they all mean exactly the same thing, while for a native English speaker they are quite different. Herein then lies the job of the ESP teacher. It is our job not only to teach vocabulary, but to teach nuances which non-professionals as yourself do not know. Want other examples? What is the difference between the cancer and the cancers and how do you know when to use plural and when singular is appropriate? How do I distinguish between "It cudbe fatal" and "It cudnbe fatal". Foreigners don't hear the difference because they don't have contractions in their language. How do you make them hear this? Maybe a student asks, "How do you know?" You reply, "If it were malignant, he would be dead." The students thinks that it was malignant because were is in the past therefore, he is dead. The student does not understand that this construction suggests an untrue situation that is imaginary. I hope your medical professional with a couple of esl training courses can explain all of the vital ways language should be interpreted and conveyed. ESP teachers are not here to teach medical knowledge. We are here to teach students how to find meaning from language and express language themselves. Along the way, we also learn much about the specific areas whose context we teach from. Let me state that again. We do not teach context--we teach language. I think you better figure out what a language teacher does before recommending that only medical professionals teach ESP (Can you explain why I used "teach" rather than a different verb form and what that signifies? I can.).
As an addendum to Melodie's excellent post, I need to point out something very important of which you are seemingly unaware. The ESL teacher who is also a medical professional would know - as the "lay" one likely would not - that our migrant radiographer (with an overseas qualification and less-than-fluent English) is absolutely not qualified or licenced in any way to make a diagnosis, and still less to give it to the patient in any of the ways you suggest at the head of your post.
ESP teachers are not there to teach medical knowledge, I would be the first to agree (Melodie the nurse could teach me nothing about X-rays, and Liz the radiographer would be a hazard in her Intensive Care Unit), but the qualified ESL teacher who has a professional's knowledge of the environment in which the language will be used will be a more effective - even a safer - teacher than the ESL teacher who does not have that knowledge. This is further demonstrated by your erroneous juxtaposition of malignancy and death. There are certainly a great many nuances of medicine of which you are totally unaware!
Perhaps you now have an inkling of why Melodie and I are in favour of having dual-qualified persons to teaching English to medical and nursing professionals?
BTW you make some rather dismissive assumptions about "foreigners" and "their language". Only one language spoken by all these foreigners, is there, and it possesses no contractions of its own? And everyone who doesn't speak English is a "foreigner"? Yikes! I didn't realise the world outside - where? - the US maybe? - was quite so completely monolingual ...
ESP teachers are not there to teach medical knowledge, I would be the first to agree (Melodie the nurse could teach me nothing about X-rays, and Liz the radiographer would be a hazard in her Intensive Care Unit), but the qualified ESL teacher who has a professional's knowledge of the environment in which the language will be used will be a more effective - even a safer - teacher than the ESL teacher who does not have that knowledge. This is further demonstrated by your erroneous juxtaposition of malignancy and death. There are certainly a great many nuances of medicine of which you are totally unaware!
Perhaps you now have an inkling of why Melodie and I are in favour of having dual-qualified persons to teaching English to medical and nursing professionals?
BTW you make some rather dismissive assumptions about "foreigners" and "their language". Only one language spoken by all these foreigners, is there, and it possesses no contractions of its own? And everyone who doesn't speak English is a "foreigner"? Yikes! I didn't realise the world outside - where? - the US maybe? - was quite so completely monolingual ...
medical esl teachers
I reread the previous listings to make sure and I was right. I found no mention of dually qualified (medical and ESL degreed) teachers. Of course, a trained ESL teacher who is also trained in the medical profession is the perfect teacher for the situations you are describing. I personally have taught esl to Saudia Arabian hospital workers, pilots and mechanics from Saudia Air, accountants and oilmen from South America, and shop workers in a factory in the US as well as others. I may not have had expertise in each of those areas, but my ESL training brought these people to a new level of English mastery which, in fact, allowed them to teach me about their areas of expertise. I now know more than I ever wanted to know about web cookies and java (to my dismay, not food for my coffee break), intestinal disorders, spread sheets, and corbels. I agree that the courses and training which you have described are not adequate, but I do believe that a university degreed teacher with 7 or 8 years experience teaching adults can handle the situations you have described more than adequately. Unfortunately, there are few people with a medical degree interested in teaching ESL, which pays so little. I hope that more and more people who are leaving medical professions, as well as other specialists, will consider entering the LEP field as a second career.
And, yes, I do know that Yikes! , as used in the previous listing, is an interjection. As far as why it appears to be plural, I don't know, but only nouns can be plural, so I'm not sure to what you are referring exactly. It actually derives from a word that fox hunters in England used to yell at their hounds to get them to find a fox--yoicks. It is similar to "giddyup", which cowboys say to their horse when they want it to go.
And, yes, I do know that Yikes! , as used in the previous listing, is an interjection. As far as why it appears to be plural, I don't know, but only nouns can be plural, so I'm not sure to what you are referring exactly. It actually derives from a word that fox hunters in England used to yell at their hounds to get them to find a fox--yoicks. It is similar to "giddyup", which cowboys say to their horse when they want it to go.
Medical Professionals
Good points, Liz, that the radiographer won't be saying any of these to the patient. However, it might have better established the ESL teacher claim to have pointed out the correct path of transmission of information. The radiologist or, more likely, the general practitioner or the treating physician will be saying something of the sort.
A radiographer takes films of the bones using radiation (radiographs), and a radiologist, a medical doctor, reads the films and gives a diagnosis to the treating physician who informs the patient of the diagnosis and the treatment plan. A radiologist does a lot more than this, he/she may also treat using radiation. Some radiographers are trained in other imaging techniques, also. Only medical radiographers take films of patients, other kinds take films of industrial welds, for example.
Good point, Saerf, that few healthcare professionals are willing to work for the low wages that ESL teachers receive.
It seems that both sides, the medical professionals working as ESL teachers and the ESL teachers doing healthcare worker ESP, could learn from each other, neither, at least here, exhibiting all the qualities necessary for this field.
A dialogue might be more productive than sarcasm, criticism and interjections. Constructive criticism is generally healthier in a teacher than simple criticism, as it shows off the value of a trained teacher. Not everyone can show you how to do something better. Plenty of folks available to criticize the lack of knowledge in others. In fact, this is part of the American television climate: how little someone else knows or can do. Sigh.
PS I've always gotten, "You have a fractured ulna/radial head/radius." Never, "You have broken your arm."
A radiographer takes films of the bones using radiation (radiographs), and a radiologist, a medical doctor, reads the films and gives a diagnosis to the treating physician who informs the patient of the diagnosis and the treatment plan. A radiologist does a lot more than this, he/she may also treat using radiation. Some radiographers are trained in other imaging techniques, also. Only medical radiographers take films of patients, other kinds take films of industrial welds, for example.
Good point, Saerf, that few healthcare professionals are willing to work for the low wages that ESL teachers receive.
It seems that both sides, the medical professionals working as ESL teachers and the ESL teachers doing healthcare worker ESP, could learn from each other, neither, at least here, exhibiting all the qualities necessary for this field.
A dialogue might be more productive than sarcasm, criticism and interjections. Constructive criticism is generally healthier in a teacher than simple criticism, as it shows off the value of a trained teacher. Not everyone can show you how to do something better. Plenty of folks available to criticize the lack of knowledge in others. In fact, this is part of the American television climate: how little someone else knows or can do. Sigh.
PS I've always gotten, "You have a fractured ulna/radial head/radius." Never, "You have broken your arm."
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fluffyhamster
- Posts: 3031
- Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2004 6:57 pm
- Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again
I've been half-following this thread, and the "argument" seems to boil down to, those who want to teach English to those working in the medical profession had best be familar with that work environment...so obviously, one who has worked in hospitals and has made a switch of sorts to teaching EMP will be in an ideal position to deliver the goods (I think we can assume they will take the "English" aspects of their new job seriously); it's not all a one-way street, however, as ESL specialists can no doubt become familar with medical practises and discourses too (and thus notice the difference between what they might learn and presume to teach from e.g. a medical dictionary or book, versus what the medical professionals actually more need)...but I suspect that the ESL specialist will have more catching up to do, all other things being equal (native level in English, interest and sensitivity to the nuances of the language etc).
I found the "bun in the oven" anecdote interesting, because I am, on the one hand, wary of teaching idioms when more basic (and perhaps more formal) language will do the job just as well if not better (that is, more clearly, obviously), but if use of the idiom (quite apart from the central meaning it is meant to express) makes sense in the context (e.g. a sort of euphemism, to avoid the potential embarrassment of saying "pregnant" off the bat), then it obviously deserves some consideration (for the doctor's receptive purposes); but ultimately, most patients would probably opt for "pregnant", and there can't be that many doctors diagnosing 'Well, I'm pleased to tell you that you have a bun in your oven, Mrs Hovis!'.
I have never taught EMP, I just have known a few doctors as undergrads or in the early stages of their postgrad training and careers (helped them write papers), and who doesn't take an interest in health issues!
I found the "bun in the oven" anecdote interesting, because I am, on the one hand, wary of teaching idioms when more basic (and perhaps more formal) language will do the job just as well if not better (that is, more clearly, obviously), but if use of the idiom (quite apart from the central meaning it is meant to express) makes sense in the context (e.g. a sort of euphemism, to avoid the potential embarrassment of saying "pregnant" off the bat), then it obviously deserves some consideration (for the doctor's receptive purposes); but ultimately, most patients would probably opt for "pregnant", and there can't be that many doctors diagnosing 'Well, I'm pleased to tell you that you have a bun in your oven, Mrs Hovis!'.
I have never taught EMP, I just have known a few doctors as undergrads or in the early stages of their postgrad training and careers (helped them write papers), and who doesn't take an interest in health issues!
"...those who want to teach English to those working in the medical profession had best be familar with that work environment..."
Exactly. That, of course, can be said about any profession - but the medical, nursing and allied professions are among the few where a life itself could be affected by a simple error in communication. The others professions, of course, are pilots and air traffic controllers.
Exactly. That, of course, can be said about any profession - but the medical, nursing and allied professions are among the few where a life itself could be affected by a simple error in communication. The others professions, of course, are pilots and air traffic controllers.
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Sealed_Transcripts
- Posts: 1
- Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2005 2:59 pm
- Location: Soul
Hi,
My name is Phillip and I'm teaching in South Korea. There are so few times when I can pump my chest out and say I'm an expert but I can do so now. I am an expert!
I have five years of big hospital experience as a medical record administrator, a BS in the field and the RHIA credential from AHIMA.org. In the hosp, we are the department that keeps track of the available lexicon and every single medical record document. I've seen it all. We are the word custodians, really. No one really listens to us but still we are paid to try to get results.
I'm tired, I'll post more later. Ms Hull, you've done a good job!
My name is Phillip and I'm teaching in South Korea. There are so few times when I can pump my chest out and say I'm an expert but I can do so now. I am an expert!
I have five years of big hospital experience as a medical record administrator, a BS in the field and the RHIA credential from AHIMA.org. In the hosp, we are the department that keeps track of the available lexicon and every single medical record document. I've seen it all. We are the word custodians, really. No one really listens to us but still we are paid to try to get results.
I'm tired, I'll post more later. Ms Hull, you've done a good job!
to Philip in Soul
Thanks so much for your support. The argument that Liz, I and others are posting here is always a difficult argument to present to the linguists and ESL teachers, in general. They seem to be very territorial.
Yes, I know you, a Medical Record Administrator, are the 'word expert' in a hospital. You most certainly are right... very few people ever acknowledge your department's existence. Sad... we need you for everything!
What are you doing in Korea? You didn't actually say if you are teaching English or working in a hospital or......
Melodie in Canada
Yes, I know you, a Medical Record Administrator, are the 'word expert' in a hospital. You most certainly are right... very few people ever acknowledge your department's existence. Sad... we need you for everything!
What are you doing in Korea? You didn't actually say if you are teaching English or working in a hospital or......
Melodie in Canada
EFL not ESL for the Medical Industry can be found
ESL for nurses and doctors has grown tremendously because of the great demand for nurses in English speaking countries and teaching material as well as educators are easy to find. However, I teach EFL (English as a FOREIGN language) to nurses and doctors in Thailand and finding material or teaching methodologies for this field is meager. However, there is a solution for those looking to hire teachers for this field.
I have been in education for over ten years and teaching English as a foreign language for over 8 years. When I made the transition to specialize to this field three years ago, I found it easy. I simply substituted the vocabulary with that of doctor/patient relations and used modals most commonly used in the health field. With experience concerning which activities brought most enjoyment and effectiveness with learning in the university sector (Korea) I found it brought the same if not more enjoyment to doctors and nurses. This is due to the fact university students HAVE to take English while nurses and doctors attend English class voluntarily.
For those looking to hire an educator for your hospital/dentistry school, etc. or students in the medical field I suggest two steps to find that teacher:
1. Find an educator with a good track record (i.e. history) teaching a particular English skill such as conversation, listening or writing. The field does not have to be health care.
2. Ask the applicant/teacher before you hire him or her, you first would like to see three sample activities using health care. You need to see how well this teacher can make the transition. If the teacher has a lot of experience, he or she should be able to develop three activities over a weekend. If the candidate cannot, you now know, and move on to another prospect.
As for where to find material, I think I am the only one who has developed textbooks teaching EFL to nurses and doctors. My classes and textbooks have task based speaking activities that assume the nurse is Thai and the patient speaks English. ESL books like Ms. Hull’s and countless others I have bought focus on acclimation to an environment in Canada, the UK or the US. Also teaching hospital policy and communicating with fellow nurses who are in most part Canadian, English or American. I developed my own texts out of necessity. It has been recommended that I publish my books (six in total) but I am so busy teaching as it is, it keeps getting pushed off to a later date. I also do not consider myself a writer, which I guess I do not have to since they are activities, not stories, or manuals. But again, if you hire a well qualified and experienced teacher, he/she should be able to develop something to fit your needs. Does an ISBN number make material effective?
Because there are no published EFL text books for nurses and doctors, as far as I know, I have found Ms. Hull’s text on grammar most effective of all the ESL books I have bought. I like her vocabulary of common idioms that an Asian nurse or doctor would benefit from knowing. There are four to five other books I bought out of the UK and I won’t mention their names, but I found them useless outside of using them to prop up my computer monitor.
If any of you know of an EFL textbook for the medical industry, please let me know. When I say EFL, I am referring to the Thai, Korean, Japanese , Iranian, or Chinese nurse/doctor who has remained in their respective country.
My post here was intended to be short but it ended up as a treatise. I’ll get off my soapbox now.
www.emedp.com
I have been in education for over ten years and teaching English as a foreign language for over 8 years. When I made the transition to specialize to this field three years ago, I found it easy. I simply substituted the vocabulary with that of doctor/patient relations and used modals most commonly used in the health field. With experience concerning which activities brought most enjoyment and effectiveness with learning in the university sector (Korea) I found it brought the same if not more enjoyment to doctors and nurses. This is due to the fact university students HAVE to take English while nurses and doctors attend English class voluntarily.
For those looking to hire an educator for your hospital/dentistry school, etc. or students in the medical field I suggest two steps to find that teacher:
1. Find an educator with a good track record (i.e. history) teaching a particular English skill such as conversation, listening or writing. The field does not have to be health care.
2. Ask the applicant/teacher before you hire him or her, you first would like to see three sample activities using health care. You need to see how well this teacher can make the transition. If the teacher has a lot of experience, he or she should be able to develop three activities over a weekend. If the candidate cannot, you now know, and move on to another prospect.
As for where to find material, I think I am the only one who has developed textbooks teaching EFL to nurses and doctors. My classes and textbooks have task based speaking activities that assume the nurse is Thai and the patient speaks English. ESL books like Ms. Hull’s and countless others I have bought focus on acclimation to an environment in Canada, the UK or the US. Also teaching hospital policy and communicating with fellow nurses who are in most part Canadian, English or American. I developed my own texts out of necessity. It has been recommended that I publish my books (six in total) but I am so busy teaching as it is, it keeps getting pushed off to a later date. I also do not consider myself a writer, which I guess I do not have to since they are activities, not stories, or manuals. But again, if you hire a well qualified and experienced teacher, he/she should be able to develop something to fit your needs. Does an ISBN number make material effective?
Because there are no published EFL text books for nurses and doctors, as far as I know, I have found Ms. Hull’s text on grammar most effective of all the ESL books I have bought. I like her vocabulary of common idioms that an Asian nurse or doctor would benefit from knowing. There are four to five other books I bought out of the UK and I won’t mention their names, but I found them useless outside of using them to prop up my computer monitor.
If any of you know of an EFL textbook for the medical industry, please let me know. When I say EFL, I am referring to the Thai, Korean, Japanese , Iranian, or Chinese nurse/doctor who has remained in their respective country.
My post here was intended to be short but it ended up as a treatise. I’ll get off my soapbox now.
www.emedp.com
Couldn't leave this site till I added my tuppence. At the moment I'm teaching English for Nursing at quite a low level, the primary function of the course we have established is to act as a transitionary period for second language learners who which to study nursing once they have obtained the relevant IELTS score. We offer a one year bridging course that aims to introduce them to some of the core areas of nursing in NZ whilst simultaneously helping the students achieve the IELTS score they need.
Initially when we first set up the course our first problem was who would be able to teach it, people in the health care profession earn substantially more than ESOL teachers and secondly even if we were able to find such an individual they would still have to be able to teach English with a focus on the IELTS requirements.
In the end I ended up teaching the course myself, it took a lot of work and study on my part to feel competent even teaching such a low level. The course objectives themselves were designed in conjucntion with a nursing school under the guidance of the nursing council of NZ but the material I adapted from Craven and Hirnle's Fundamentals of NURSING, along with other core text books.
I find that at this level and for this particular course the tutor's strengths should be on the language side of the equation rather than the medical side.
Initially when we first set up the course our first problem was who would be able to teach it, people in the health care profession earn substantially more than ESOL teachers and secondly even if we were able to find such an individual they would still have to be able to teach English with a focus on the IELTS requirements.
In the end I ended up teaching the course myself, it took a lot of work and study on my part to feel competent even teaching such a low level. The course objectives themselves were designed in conjucntion with a nursing school under the guidance of the nursing council of NZ but the material I adapted from Craven and Hirnle's Fundamentals of NURSING, along with other core text books.
I find that at this level and for this particular course the tutor's strengths should be on the language side of the equation rather than the medical side.
Been having quite the time researching this for Japan. Look here for a fairly recent piece of news (2004) on how a couple of military doctors worked with a university to develop their own texts. No surprise. I have not seen more than the covers for the texts, but they are available through Amazon.If any of you know of an EFL textbook for the medical industry, please let me know. When I say EFL, I am referring to the Thai, Korean, Japanese , Iranian, or Chinese nurse/doctor who has remained in their respective country.
http://lpwm.com/members
ESP/English for Medical Professionals
Hi, ssean in New Zealand:
I have written a new course exactly for the type of student you seem to have. It's called Basic English for Health Care Workers. You can check my website for details (Clayton International Consulting). This course will help your nurses transition into the workplace, I think. The focus is more on every day usage: grammar and interacting with patients. There are a few exercises on technical language.
Jpagano... thank-you for the words of praise about my workbooks, particularly Adjectives, Adverbs & Descriptors.
For those of you teaching health professionals who haveintermediate or advanced level English, take a peek at my on-line course, www.e4on.ca.
Yours,
Melodie Hull
Nurse-Educator & Consultant
Canada
I have written a new course exactly for the type of student you seem to have. It's called Basic English for Health Care Workers. You can check my website for details (Clayton International Consulting). This course will help your nurses transition into the workplace, I think. The focus is more on every day usage: grammar and interacting with patients. There are a few exercises on technical language.
Jpagano... thank-you for the words of praise about my workbooks, particularly Adjectives, Adverbs & Descriptors.
For those of you teaching health professionals who haveintermediate or advanced level English, take a peek at my on-line course, www.e4on.ca.
Yours,
Melodie Hull
Nurse-Educator & Consultant
Canada
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tigertiger
- Posts: 246
- Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2005 9:42 am
The subject of whether ESL teachers can teach subjects they have no professional experience in will always be contentious (like my spelling when blogging).
It can be done, but others with experience can do it better. The difference may not always be that important, but in some fields it is.
E.G. My boss came to me in the summer and asked be what we can do for a client who wants 'contract English'. My answer was "don't do it, there is a risk of giving wrong advice, and we know nothing of the law in the host country".
With lots of study and preparation we could have done it. However, to pick up a book and 'wing it' would have been dabbling in a professional area, which would have been unwise.
Some of the 'professions' are too important to be dabbled in. Even if it is done by people who are expert practitioners in the field of teaching. Medicine is one such profession.
My two cents worth.
It can be done, but others with experience can do it better. The difference may not always be that important, but in some fields it is.
E.G. My boss came to me in the summer and asked be what we can do for a client who wants 'contract English'. My answer was "don't do it, there is a risk of giving wrong advice, and we know nothing of the law in the host country".
With lots of study and preparation we could have done it. However, to pick up a book and 'wing it' would have been dabbling in a professional area, which would have been unwise.
Some of the 'professions' are too important to be dabbled in. Even if it is done by people who are expert practitioners in the field of teaching. Medicine is one such profession.
My two cents worth.